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      08-29-2008, 08:38 PM   #1
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Question BMW Delaying X6 xDrive50i delivery

Has anyone heard the newest development with the TTV8? Heard from a very reliable internal BMWNA source which makes this pretty credible. Apparently, with the delivery of a few 2008 50i's so far, there have been a few (more than expected) engine fires. Apparently with the twin turbos of the V8 are mounted on the top of the engine, with the oxygen sensors heat shield, there is still not enough cooling. Engines are overheating thus resulting in engine fires!!! UGH

I am so bummed because I am first up for a 2009 but now I am worried--BMW is scrambling to find a redesign, I doubt it will be a major engine redesign (i.e. relocation of the TTs). BTW, there is s difference in design with the TTV6--these turbos are lower and near the rear of the engine with better air flow.

Has anyone else heard about this problem? I see some folks are having their 2008 V8 "delayed" so I wonder if this is the real cause.
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      08-29-2008, 08:54 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by DoctaM3 View Post
Has anyone heard the newest development with the TTV8? Heard from a very reliable internal BMWNA source which makes this pretty credible. Apparently, with the delivery of a few 2008 50i's so far, there have been a few (more than expected) engine fires. Apparently with the twin turbos of the V8 are mounted on the top of the engine, with the oxygen sensors heat shield, there is still not enough cooling. Engines are overheating thus resulting in engine fires!!! UGH

I am so bummed because I am first up for a 2009 but now I am worried--BMW is scrambling to find a redesign, I doubt it will be a major engine redesign (i.e. relocation of the TTs). BTW, there is s difference in design with the TTV6--these turbos are lower and near the rear of the engine with better air flow.

Has anyone else heard about this problem? I see some folks are having their 2008 V8 "delayed" so I wonder if this is the real cause.

Interesting. I have mine and have not caught on fire yet I wonder what BMW is going to do to remedy this for those of us that do have 2008 X6 50i models.
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      08-29-2008, 09:21 PM   #3
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      08-29-2008, 10:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctaM3 View Post
Has anyone heard the newest development with the TTV8? Heard from a very reliable internal BMWNA source which makes this pretty credible. Apparently, with the delivery of a few 2008 50i's so far, there have been a few (more than expected) engine fires. Apparently with the twin turbos of the V8 are mounted on the top of the engine, with the oxygen sensors heat shield, there is still not enough cooling. Engines are overheating thus resulting in engine fires!!! UGH

I am so bummed because I am first up for a 2009 but now I am worried--BMW is scrambling to find a redesign, I doubt it will be a major engine redesign (i.e. relocation of the TTs). BTW, there is s difference in design with the TTV6--these turbos are lower and near the rear of the engine with better air flow.

Has anyone else heard about this problem? I see some folks are having their 2008 V8 "delayed" so I wonder if this is the real cause.
Here is a partial fix.These stainless steel vents found on the hood of all the preproduction,tester X6's.I've wondered why on many occasions that these vents did not make it to production vehicles.Especially on a TT engine that we all know runs hotter than a normally aspirated engine.On the TTV8...these vents would be right above the TT's in the vee of the engine.Seems like a nobrainer to me. Thanks! PalBay
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      08-29-2008, 10:40 PM   #5
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Exactly! They removed them in the production model--The vents don't look too bad so I hope they go back to that... would be another distinguishing mark of the V8

Let's see what comes of this.. maybe they can do the hoods quickly and not hold up the '09 production. Besides, look like they are hedging and cutting the production #'s of the 2009 models becuase of concerns about the econonmy.
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      08-29-2008, 10:57 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctaM3 View Post
Exactly! They removed them in the production model--The vents don't look too bad so I hope they go back to that... would be another distinguishing mark of the V8

Let's see what comes of this.. maybe they can do the hoods quickly and not hold up the '09 production. Besides, look like they are hedging and cutting the production #'s of the 2009 models becuase of concerns about the econonmy.
I actually thought they looked kidda sporty...and served a real purpose.I've seen them up close...they are the shiny stainless steel type.I've seen similar ones on other makes of cars.You gotta know the reason they are on the testers is because they are doggin em pretty hard during testing and the engines are producing lot's of heat.Like I said a nobrainer! Thanks! PalBay
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      08-30-2008, 01:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Here is a partial fix.These stainless steel vents found on the hood of all the preproduction,tester X6's.I've wondered why on many occasions that these vents did not make it to production vehicles
Nothing escaped to your sight, good job Palbay
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      08-30-2008, 01:33 AM   #8
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I would imagine that BMW would announce a major recall if this is in fact true. Sounds like a huge liability to keep it under the hood.

I've got the 50i right now in service for a E71 Program Control Unit Power Drop. I wonder what that is for and hope it's not related!

I also spoke to the service manager for BMW here and he said they have about 30 cars TTV8 not a single incident of fire. Further, weather here in the summer time averages 106 degrees yet no problems.

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      08-30-2008, 10:05 AM   #9
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I hadn't heard this rumor nor has my dealer, but I'm not surprised. I speculated a few months ago in this forum that the TTV8 -- while being extremely clever and innovative -- might have an achilles heel in that so much heat is concentrated in the V above the engine. Another poster surmised that BMW has to be using "Shuttle grade ceramics" to keep the heat from damaging the engine cover or vehicle hood.

There are two schools of thought about heat concentration like this. The pessimist's view is that the concentrated heat buildup could be very damaging. The optimist's perspective is that at least if the heat is all in one place it can be managed. The "Palbay vents" seen in his pictures of preproduction 50i's would only be helpful if the engine has no cover, which seems to be a no-no these days. If indeed fires have been occurring, that would indictae that it is heat soak following engine shutdown that is the problem. If the rumor is true, it will be interesting to see what BMW engineers come up with.

Twin turbos -- there's no free lunch!
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      08-30-2008, 12:00 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suzie's Dad View Post
I hadn't heard this rumor nor has my dealer, but I'm not surprised. I speculated a few months ago in this forum that the TTV8 -- while being extremely clever and innovative -- might have an achilles heel in that so much heat is concentrated in the V above the engine. Another poster surmised that BMW has to be using "Shuttle grade ceramics" to keep the heat from damaging the engine cover or vehicle hood.

There are two schools of thought about heat concentration like this. The pessimist's view is that the concentrated heat buildup could be very damaging. The optimist's perspective is that at least if the heat is all in one place it can be managed. The "Palbay vents" seen in his pictures of preproduction 50i's would only be helpful if the engine has no cover, which seems to be a no-no these days. If indeed fires have been occurring, that would indictae that it is heat soak following engine shutdown that is the problem. If the rumor is true, it will be interesting to see what BMW engineers come up with.

Twin turbos -- there's no free lunch!
1960's Detroit Muscle Car Hood Scoops!!!!!!! Thanks! PalBay
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      08-30-2008, 12:12 PM   #11
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I always new the X6 would be a HOT truck.
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      08-30-2008, 03:42 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by rockmed View Post
I would imagine that BMW would announce a major recall if this is in fact true. Sounds like a huge liability to keep it under the hood.

I've got the 50i right now in service for a E71 Program Control Unit Power Drop. I wonder what that is for and hope it's not related!

I also spoke to the service manager for BMW here and he said they have about 30 cars TTV8 not a single incident of fire. Further, weather here in the summer time averages 106 degrees yet no problems.
How did you know you had the E71 program control power drop issue? Did you feel it or some light came on or did the dealer fix this as a part of normal maintenance when you went in to service vehicle
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      08-30-2008, 04:03 PM   #13
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I agree with SD , since the turbos are covered inside the engine vents/scoops would do little to address the problem directly. Since No owner of a TT8 is reporting this I'm sceptical, after all we all remember the famous "bmw engineer" MPG quote for the TT8.

I suspect these were run harder at the track then any of us will ever approach. So at this point will consider this 3 series fud as that seems to be going around.

Last edited by dmlgc; 09-01-2008 at 11:44 PM.
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      08-30-2008, 04:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shenard View Post
How did you know you had the E71 program control power drop issue? Did you feel it or some light came on or did the dealer fix this as a part of normal maintenance when you went in to service vehicle
Never noticed a problem. The dealer called me. When I got there this morning, they said it was a recall issued by BMW. I guess it only affected a limited batch production. Even in the service invoice, it is written RECALL Program Control...

By the way, after continuous driving for over 100 miles, I touched the hood of the car and it wasn't hot at all.
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      08-31-2008, 02:19 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Here is a partial fix.These stainless steel vents found on the hood of all the preproduction,tester X6's.I've wondered why on many occasions that these vents did not make it to production vehicles.Especially on a TT engine that we all know runs hotter than a normally aspirated engine.On the TTV8...these vents would be right above the TT's in the vee of the engine.Seems like a nobrainer to me. Thanks! PalBay
Well, if you look at this picture, you can see where these additional vents would end up. I'm not sure they would have anything to do with removing any additional heat from the engine compartment!!!

They would end up right on top of the fresh air intake for the passenger compartment!

That is unless those pictures palbay took of the original prototype cars actaually had some other duct configuration under the hood!

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      08-31-2008, 12:08 PM   #16
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Wouldn't the vents on the top make the air pass through the kidney grills, then through engine compartment then come out on top through the vents thus increasing airflow in the top part of the engine compartment?
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      08-31-2008, 12:33 PM   #17
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Wouldn't the vents on the top make the air pass through the kidney grills, then through engine compartment then come out on top through the vents thus increasing airflow in the top part of the engine compartment?
Yes, I'm not an engineer,but you would get the flowthru effect w/ the car at speed.I still believe it would help at idle or low speed.Hot air rises.Look at most modern auto hood systems...they are completely sealed except for the front grill openings.Done mostly for engine noise suppression (the masses don't want to hear the machine they are driving) and for aerodynamics related to MPG.None of the above is really conducive to 1,200 degree F turbo's staying cool.I know modern turbo's are cooled by the water jacket,etc.Still, very sealed engine compartment w/ very hot turbo's not real good for long engine life.Not to long ago auto manfs recommended popping the hood after long runs to help cool turbo engines .It's like BMWs "Free Maintenance" just because they say long intervals is ok on certain items,does not make it right.If the TTV8 has overheating issues the hood vents would help....just like popping the hood still helps on turbo engines.Nobody does it because its a hassle no one wants to engage in.Back to my original point...there is a reason those hood vents are on test cars....to vent hot engine air.The test cars are pushed.But not every second is spent on the track.Just my two cents worth...again!!!! Thanks!!! PalBay
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      08-31-2008, 01:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Yes, I'm not an engineer,but you would get the flowthru effect w/ the car at speed.I still believe it would help at idle or low speed.Hot air rises.Look at most modern auto hood systems...they are completely sealed except for the front grill openings.Done mostly for engine noise suppression (the masses don't want to hear the machine they are driving) and for aerodynamics related to MPG.None of the above is really conducive to 1,200 degree F turbo's staying cool.I know modern turbo's are cooled by the water jacket,etc.Still, very sealed engine compartment w/ very hot turbo's not real good for long engine life.Not to long ago auto manfs recommended popping the hood after long runs to help cool turbo engines .It's like BMWs "Free Maintenance" just because they say long intervals is ok on certain items,does not make it right.If the TTV8 has overheating issues the hood vents would help....just like popping the hood still helps on turbo engines.Nobody does it because its a hassle no one wants to engage in.Back to my original point...there is a reason those hood vents are on test cars....to vent hot engine air.The test cars are pushed.But not every second is spent on the track.Just my two cents worth...again!!!! Thanks!!! PalBay
You would think they would test the cars as they would be built. That is what matters the most. They could have added the vents to study engine temps for the M or something.
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      08-31-2008, 03:48 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Yes, I'm not an engineer,but you would get the flowthru effect w/ the car at speed.I still believe it would help at idle or low speed.Hot air rises.Look at most modern auto hood systems...they are completely sealed except for the front grill openings.
But isn't that bit just in front of the windshield a high-pressure area? That's why they put the air intakes there for the passenger compartment. Which means that at speed air would be forced IN through those vents, even though it would rise out at rest.

If there is, indeed, a heat problem, I'm guessing it is from the catalysts and not the turbos. The turbos are cooled both by oil and by coolant, and they have a supplemental pump that keeps them cooling after engine shutdown. But the catalysts -- also right there at the back of the V at the top of the engine -- have no cooling at all. In fact quite the opposite: they need to have their contents almost red hot in order to work correctly.
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      08-31-2008, 06:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
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But isn't that bit just in front of the windshield a high-pressure area? That's why they put the air intakes there for the passenger compartment. Which means that at speed air would be forced IN through those vents, even though it would rise out at rest.

If there is, indeed, a heat problem, I'm guessing it is from the catalysts and not the turbos. The turbos are cooled both by oil and by coolant, and they have a supplemental pump that keeps them cooling after engine shutdown. But the catalysts -- also right there at the back of the V at the top of the engine -- have no cooling at all. In fact quite the opposite: they need to have their contents almost red hot in order to work correctly.
I hope there is not a problem....and I'm a huge fan of turbo's.It gives us the horsepower we all love and helps w/ the MPG issue.Turbos are the future of high performance auto's.I'll tell you a story about my experience w/ Turbo engines.I owned a recent Audi A4 Avant w/ the "10 Time" or something close to that,"International Engine of the Year"......the 2.0L 200hp Turbo engine found in the Audi/VW lineup.It was the first engine to produce 100hp per/liter.It's been surpassed now by other engines.A state of the art powerplant.It had a feature found on many current generation turbo's...the ability to move engine coolant around the Turbo AFTER engine shutdown.I live very close to some great enthusiast roads in the mountains of NC,TN and North GA.I use them as much as time allows.I took the Audi up in the mountains on more than one occasion to TRY and make the electric circulation motor and pump that is suppose to cool the turbo upon shutdown engage after spirited driving.This was sustained redline driving,heavy engine braking,the whole nine yards.Not once after finding a place to pull over and shut the engine down,did I ever hear the electric pump come on.Maybe I never hit the "bingo" temp number to engage the pump...but the car was being driven very hard.I suspect the "pump on" temp number must be set so high by the auto manuf.....that it damn near needs to be an engine fire before the pump kicks in.My point is: these cars have all this gee wizz stuff to protect us and the car....But my natural distrust of modern engine electronics and some engineering,leads me to wonder if it really works like it was designed to operate.I know the Audi engine had very high oil and turbo temps just by the way I was driving the car.Just wondering in these high horsepower turbo engines if the underhood temps are really completely thought out and understood w/ the best intentions of the engine at heart.PS...Not meaning to scare anyone,but BMW took liberties w/ the 3 Series Coupe I think w/ the TTI6,and originally did not include an oil cooler in the car unless it came w/ the Sport Package.I think BMW went back and retrofitted non Sport Package cars w/ oil coolers.Just an FYI. Thanks! PalBay
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      08-31-2008, 08:44 PM   #21
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Well guys, they sure did test the car hard under all sorts of conditions for sure. However, we all know that the real test comes when the products are in the hards of the consumer. Think for instance about the oil pan cooling for the 335i (another twin turbo). I have an 335i so i know the full story. Initially, there were isolated reports, but as more came in, it became pretty obvious there was a problem (even though the car was fully tested before production).

We enthusiasts will drive the car hard and probably operate it harder than well we probably should. Remember this is the V8 and does not appear to affect the V6. It is appears to be the location of the TT in the V8...they are mounted up high and are apparently not getting enough cool air (probably the reason for the hood vents). it is the sensors and plastic covers that are melting because the heat shield may not be enough to protect this area. They (BMW) is far more sensitive with these TT after the 335i experience. They got a few in and noticed that this was the problem, so they are working on a fix. Doubt it will be relocation of TT since with would be a major engine redesign. Probably a better heat shield or maybe even better heat shield.

I am not surprised the dealers know nothing--as a class, they are generally useless. Stick to the forums! If you have a V8, enjoy it but just know that there may be a fix coming... don't over do it though
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      09-01-2008, 02:30 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garbagejunk View Post
Wouldn't the vents on the top make the air pass through the kidney grills, then through engine compartment then come out on top through the vents thus increasing airflow in the top part of the engine compartment?
Not unless they had a completely different duct layout under the hood of those cars with the two grills at the top of the hood near the windshield.

Take a look at the above picture I had posted in my last post. You can clearly see the 'upside down shaped V' air dam with the black soft rubber lip on top. This damn prevents any air "flow through" from the front kidney grills, over the engine and out over the windshield. This area is used as the fresh air intake for the passenger compartment. It prevents rain, snow and other stuff from getting into the fresh air intake while you are driving.

As Suzie's Dad said: 'But isn't that bit just in front of the windshield a high-pressure area? That's why they put the air intakes there for the passenger compartment. Which means that at speed air would be forced IN through those vents, even though it would rise out at rest.'

So those grills in those pictures palbay posted are either just for looks and are none functional or the under the hood passenger compartment air intake originally had a completely different shape. Otherwise they would had to be located half way down the hood to be in front of the air damn or they would have had to put a single one in the middle of the hood bear the windshield.
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