[ndog14]

I had a bad feeling this morning about the F30 that it wouldn't be the continuation of the ultimate driving machine we would be hoping for. I have my own reasons for this thought and before I discuss this I was wondering what company you think would make the next new "driver's car."

I think Infiniti would pick up this gauntlet over Audi because they prefer RWD and are much more open to manuals being on all of their cars than select trim models.

What do you guys think?

[Louchie]

Have you read the reviews for the F30?

[bubbahead]

What do you guys think?[/QUOTE]

your smoking something good...

[#Tee]

Drive first then think

[Louchie]

Originally Posted by StretchNpoke

Drive first then think

@ your avy

[ndog14]

Originally Posted by Louchie

Have you read the reviews for the F30?

Yes I have and I do not like the road BMW is going down. Electric steering, Turbo engines (long live the NA), automatic gearboxes (the engines are being designed in conjuctions with automatics instead of manuals), the list goes on. If it's no longer the driver's car it started out as, how long until till a competitor beats it in something other than reliability?

[ZZZZ]

Originally Posted by ndog14

Yes I have and I do not like the road BMW is going down. Electric steering, Turbo engines (long live the NA), automatic gearboxes (the engines are being designed in conjuctions with automatics instead of manuals), the list goes on. If it's no longer the driver's car it started out as, how long until till a competitor beats it in something other than reliability?

Problem is all cars in this class will suffer the same fates.
The F10 has the OPTION or electric power steering IF you want the park assist option. (Car parks itself). Hydraulic is still standard.

Turbo engines are inevitable, and if the 335i and is are any indication, BMW is pretty good at building them too. Not sure what building it with an automatic gearbox has to do with it, but anyway---the ultimate driving machine gets diluted with every generation. I haven't owned/driven anything before the E30, but E30>E36>E46>E90 have all become more and more vanilla and yet BMW has managed to maintain its ultimate driving machine moniker throughout those years. I don't expect things to change anytime soon.

[TheBingoBalls]

Originally Posted by ndog14

Yes I have and I do not like the road BMW is going down. Electric steering, Turbo engines (long live the NA), automatic gearboxes (the engines are being designed in conjuctions with automatics instead of manuals), the list goes on. If it's no longer the driver's car it started out as, how long until till a competitor beats it in something other than reliability?

While BMW isn't the car it was (E36/E46, perhaps even earlier, depending on who you ask), it still is very much a drivers car. To be honest, unless you want to talk about Porsche's, no other manufacturer whether it be Mercedes, Audi or Infiniti as you may be suggesting is going to bring it back to what BMW once was. There are too many regulations that manufacturer's need to follow. Sure, BMW has got a little "soft" but the F30 still does it better than anyone else in it's class (according to early reviews).

[ndog14]

Thank you ZZZZ and ??.e90 for responding intellectually, that is what I am hoping for, an honest discussion. Every BMW has gotten softer, the most drastic in my opinion e36 -> e46, and it is inevitable. For me, my favorite BMWs are the e38, e39, and e46. That is what I think of when I think of BMW. When I think of MB I think of the S- and CLS-Class. The F30 and new bimmers are not what I want from BMW but that's not my decision. For me, I think I will get an E46 M3 after this E90 as a car to hopefully hold onto for the rest of my life and occasionally drive as a reminder but have something else as my daily car like an Infiniti or an Audi.

[hipnotic]

i want to test drive one

[TroyDeJ]

i was thinking about doing the same thing with getting an e46 M3 after my e90. i think the e46 m3 is one of the best bmws ever made and if i cant find a good condition low milage one i will go with a low mileage 335i coupe to keep as a weekend car

[dd330i]

i'm a little worried about BMW's ambitions. Talking to a local sales rep, he states BMW wants to be the biggest manufacturer, they are coming out with a 1-8 series of cars and seem more interested in making money.

[dreamingat30fps]

This is why I got the Z4M.

PS: If you ask some of the old school guys they would say BMW has been garbage for many years (2000+)

[ndog14]

Originally Posted by TroyDeJ

i was thinking about doing the same thing with getting an e46 M3 after my e90. i think the e46 m3 is one of the best bmws ever made and if i cant find a good condition low milage one i will go with a low mileage 335i coupe to keep as a weekend car

+1

it has to be an N54 335

E46 M3 is my favorite BMW (for the rest of time it looks like), my favorite car (sorry ferrari 458), and my favorite realistic car a person can own

[bbbuzzy]

The best current "driver's car" from BMW may just be the 1M. Too bad they won't make more of them.

[Taipei-TT]

For all the guys who love the old BMWs....I think just get on a mission and find one, loved or unloved, and bring it up to all its glory! They have to be out there!

Whether we see it as progress or not, change is inevitable. I personally prefer safer, more efficient, and faster cars. But if change is not your thing, there are alternatives around, and perhaps a cotton gin or two to smash up if it makes you feel better!

[RoundelM3]

I'm waiting to see what the F32 (Coupe) looks like before I decide. I've owned 5 Porsches and I prefer BMWs these days. Also, categorizing a car as a "driver's car" is really pretty subjective - everyone has their own idea about what the qualifications are. I plan on keeping my mildly modded 07 E92 for awhile...with only 34K miles on it and no commute to work, it should last a few more years.

Every Mercedes that falls into the same class is too expensive, Audis just aren't reliable and they're expensive to maintain, plus their "Quattro" is FWD-biased. And the Japanese wannabes are just that. But to each their own.

[Php]

E46 M3 (with the manual) is the best BMW out there in my opinion. I have never driven any E36s but I do believe what others say as a great driving machine too. But these days people want more luxury. Luxury comes with more electronic assists and all the other stuff. We (driving enthusists) don't represent the majority of BMW buyers, maybe only a fraction, at least in the united states. The majority of folks are really more into the idea of a luxury car, that (supposely) has the sports car capability, but then yet don't really understand much about driving aside of daily commutes, and can never really utilize a car's capability. To be simple, they just buy based on the brand image that BMW has built thoughout the years, it's a cool image car, and also knowing that "ok my car has sports car ability", but they might never utilize that their whole life.

I've been considering a lotus for a few weeks now. Haven't had the chance to test drive one yet though. From all I've read, it's very hardcore. Fiberglass structure and I can probably hear every single noise inside and outside of the car. I'm not sure if I want to make that move yet. The Porsche is pretty damn loud already. Utility/Luxury vs performance. Best of both worlds? I would still say the M3. It's not the ultimate driving machine, but maybe the ultimate machine for the combination of the two. (until porsche decides to come out with a similar size sedan/coupe with trunk)

[RoundelM3]

E46 M3 with a supercharger/turbo setup is a killer car for sure...used to take my E46 ZHP to a place in North Houston area that specialized in pumped-up M3s and they were all-business machines. The E46 M3 CSL was very lightweight and powerful, and it's a shame they didn't sell them here.

I have heard and read that the E36 wasn't such a great car from a reliability standpoint - too many weak points requiring too much repair/modification to keep them going. And they never imported any with the more powerful Euro engine that went into the E46 M3.

[ndog14]

Originally Posted by roundel335

Every Mercedes that falls into the same class is too expensive, Audis just aren't reliable and they're expensive to maintain, plus their "Quattro" is FWD-biased. And the Japanese wannabes are just that. But to each their own.

Quattro is RWD biased. 1/3 front and 2/3 back. In the sportier cars the difference is even more, the R8 V10 is 5% front and 95% back.

And I think Infiniti is really trying to improve their car's driving feel to come close to BMWs.


@bbbuzzy

The 1M is without a doubt, but they have already stopped making them. To bad, truly an epic car. My personal beef with the 1M are the twin turbos. They are great at power and efficiency but I love NA engines and that will never change.

I understand why BMW is moving to turbos but I feel there is a missed market. Everywhere but the U.S. BMWs are offered with multiple petrol and diesel engines. Why can't BMW bring back the 330 for enthusiast? I'm not talking about selling them as numerous as the 335s, but provide the option to get that engine. It would fit nicely between the 328 and 335 if they boost it to 265 horsepower.

[ZZZZ]

Originally Posted by ndog14

Thank you ZZZZ and ??.e90 for responding intellectually, that is what I am hoping for, an honest discussion. Every BMW has gotten softer, the most drastic in my opinion e36 -> e46, and it is inevitable. For me, my favorite BMWs are the e38, e39, and e46. That is what I think of when I think of BMW. When I think of MB I think of the S- and CLS-Class. The F30 and new bimmers are not what I want from BMW but that's not my decision. For me, I think I will get an E46 M3 after this E90 as a car to hopefully hold onto for the rest of my life and occasionally drive as a reminder but have something else as my daily car like an Infiniti or an Audi.

To be honest, as a new owner of my e90, even with the sport/premium packages---I'm a bit disappointed. I have a hard time believing this thing is the 'ultimate driving machine' even. Yes, perhaps out of the competition it is the best... but it's not the best "drivers car" 3 series or BMW that our friends in Bavaria have built. I don't expect the F10 to be any different.

Out of all the BMW's I've owned over the past few years (e36, 2x e46, e39, e85). I agree with you that the e39 is one of the most pure luxury drivers cars that can hold a family. I just wish that V8 wasn't such a money-put to maintain. (540i). The e85 (Z4) is by far the most capable BMW I've owned.... it's odd at first, but the more you drive it the more you fall in love with it. (Even if the styling is a bit quirky) Everything is designed for the driving experience, hands just fall into place everywhere, the sound from the intake is piped into the cabin so you hear a nice growl without disturbing others on the road (as a loud exhaust would). That, is definitely a driver's car and even driving a stock 335i afterwards is quite dull, even with the added power.

The e90 feels more refined yes, but it brings with it a lot of quirks that I feel are the result of styling over function. The arm rest + door arm rest are not the same height, and I can't pop into 5th or 6th gears without moving my elbow from the armrest. The turn signal stalk is too far away from the steering wheel (they move together when adjusting the wheel), and even the sport wheel is too big in terms of circumference. The throttle is lazy/laggy, and the clutch delay is annoying. The brakes are one thing that I'm happy with. The side view mirrors are too small (why isn't it a split-mirror with a convex lens on the outer edge?) The runflat tires tramline like crazy and give a very harsh ride. Out of the box, the e90 isn't much of a drivers car as much as I thought it'd be based on how everyone raves and rants about it---it requires a lot of aftermarket tweaks/money to get a BMS Powerbox, remove the CDV, and get proper tires. And other things just can't be fixed easily like the armrest or wing mirrors.

So in my opinion, the 3 series already is not the ultimate driving machine---however it is the best driving car in its class. However, that doesn't mean BMW won't continue to develop some great drivers cars. The e89 Z4 became Vanilla, but that's because they're making a new raw Z2 soft-top roadster without all the bells and whistles. The 3 series is becoming a mars land rover, but the 1 series should retain some of the edge lost in the 3.

I guess only time will tell. If BMW doesn't continue to develop a fun car, I'd probably have to give Infiniti my money next time.

[DDS2015]

The problem with the direction that the F30 is headed in is that the market is dictating what it should be. I know that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'll try to explain with examples.

As the technology gets cheaper, more people want it adapted into the lower market cars. For instance all of the driver aids with all of the cameras that debuted on the F01 are now trickling down to the F30 and F20. This dilutes the driving experience. The traction controls, the driver assists, etc all dilute it. Of course the older cars are going to feel more raw because not only were technologies too expensive to put into those cars, but they weren't required by federal law.

Furthermore, everybody nowadays is sue-happy and if they do something stupid in a car (like accelerate to such a high speed that the tires blow out) they're going to find a way to sue somebody for their own stupidity.

Airbags are another thing. Yes, they are obviously extremely important, but they are expensive, and they weigh a lot.

Then, you have all of the safety and emissions standards that have to be conformed to. It won't be long until we all drive bubbles around and they're all silver and black because blue and red were too distracting and caused accidents.