S63 X5M to S63 M5 Exhaust Manny and Turbo Questions

[RichardH]

Hi Guys
Richard H from South Africa.
James is referring to me as George.
I confirm that swopping the sensors does work.
DME works with ratio from sensors.
Firing order is exactly the same as TU.
Only issue I have now is that the trims are high.
Stuck at 25 most of time.
Definitely need to tune.
My explanation is that theres alot more air running through the system now with
TU turbos and manifold so DME needs to compensate.

[m5james]

Damn it...sorry, Richard :-) I can't find our entire convo, can you write me again when you get a chance.

[greddy91]

Originally Posted by RichardH

Hi Guys
Richard H from South Africa.
James is referring to me as George.
I confirm that swopping the sensors does work.
DME works with ratio from sensors.
Firing order is exactly the same as TU.
Only issue I have now is that the trims are high.
Stuck at 25 most of time.
Definitely need to tune.
My explanation is that theres alot more air running through the system now with
TU turbos and manifold so DME needs to compensate.

I don't see firing order as an issue... and agree a tune would be required. Probably a deep tune.

Speculating a bit here, because I am no tuner, but what I can deduce woudl clearly occur is:

On non-TU the banks are 1-4 and 5-8, so the DME expects left and right banks output to the O2s and would compensate fuel to those cylinders accordingly.

When using the TU manny cylinders 1,5; 4,8 would be reversed respectively. So if the pulse from cylinder 5 ran lean, the DME would actually modify the trim for cylinder 1 - because it has been reversed.

On a well built and maintained motor I would bet this would make minimal difference as everything is running smoothly, and the a/f ratios are much more likely to be pretty even on all 8 cylinders. But... this motor tends to shaft itself as it ages. When that begins...

Does a misfire on cylinder 1 that the DME reads actually mean cylinder 5 misfired? How will you tell?
Can the DME properly compensate each cylinder when pressing the go pedal under significantly increased boost pressure? How do I know that with this config?

Not nay-saying to be spiteful, quite the opposite. I want to tun the TU manifold, but what I see in complexity makes me very hesitant as it seems that as soon as I engage a tuner with the prospect of pulling this switch off thoroughly they tend to become non-responsive when they realize how much work is going to be involved.

[RichardH]

Originally Posted by greddy91

I don't see firing order as an issue... and agree a tune would be required. Probably a deep tune.

Speculating a bit here, because I am no tuner, but what I can deduce woudl clearly occur is:

On non-TU the banks are 1-4 and 5-8, so the DME expects left and right banks output to the O2s and would compensate fuel to those cylinders accordingly.

When using the TU manny cylinders 1,5; 4,8 would be reversed respectively. So if the pulse from cylinder 5 ran lean, the DME would actually modify the trim for cylinder 1 - because it has been reversed.

On a well built and maintained motor I would bet this would make minimal difference as everything is running smoothly, and the a/f ratios are much more likely to be pretty even on all 8 cylinders. But... this motor tends to shaft itself as it ages. When that begins...

Does a misfire on cylinder 1 that the DME reads actually mean cylinder 5 misfired? How will you tell?
Can the DME properly compensate each cylinder when pressing the go pedal under significantly increased boost pressure? How do I know that with this config?

Not nay-saying to be spiteful, quite the opposite. I want to tun the TU manifold, but what I see in complexity makes me very hesitant as it seems that as soon as I engage a tuner with the prospect of pulling this switch off thoroughly they tend to become non-responsive when they realize how much work is going to be involved.

We are all here to learn willing to give it a try.
My tuner is currently in Germany will work on a tune as soon as he comes back

These guys been offering the upgrade for a very long time now
https://www.tuningwerk.de/bmw/x-reihe/x5m-e70/

[m5james]

Originally Posted by greddy91

I don't see firing order as an issue... and agree a tune would be required. Probably a deep tune.

Speculating a bit here, because I am no tuner, but what I can deduce woudl clearly occur is:

On non-TU the banks are 1-4 and 5-8, so the DME expects left and right banks output to the O2s and would compensate fuel to those cylinders accordingly.

When using the TU manny cylinders 1,5; 4,8 would be reversed respectively. So if the pulse from cylinder 5 ran lean, the DME would actually modify the trim for cylinder 1 - because it has been reversed.

On a well built and maintained motor I would bet this would make minimal difference as everything is running smoothly, and the a/f ratios are much more likely to be pretty even on all 8 cylinders. But... this motor tends to shaft itself as it ages. When that begins...

Does a misfire on cylinder 1 that the DME reads actually mean cylinder 5 misfired? How will you tell?
Can the DME properly compensate each cylinder when pressing the go pedal under significantly increased boost pressure? How do I know that with this config?

Not nay-saying to be spiteful, quite the opposite. I want to tun the TU manifold, but what I see in complexity makes me very hesitant as it seems that as soon as I engage a tuner with the prospect of pulling this switch off thoroughly they tend to become non-responsive when they realize how much work is going to be involved.

Bottom line is it's been done before...there's a couple threads floating around of who's done it, some unsuccessfully (he didn't tune for them and didn't do what Richard did because he was the first like 8yrs ago vs recently) and those who paid $15000 to make them successful...we're practically a forgotten platform so now we're just trying to find a way to do it without spending $15000 to do so - https://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638340

[jandref321]

Originally Posted by greddy91

I don't see firing order as an issue... and agree a tune would be required. Probably a deep tune.

Speculating a bit here, because I am no tuner, but what I can deduce woudl clearly occur is:

On non-TU the banks are 1-4 and 5-8, so the DME expects left and right banks output to the O2s and would compensate fuel to those cylinders accordingly.

When using the TU manny cylinders 1,5; 4,8 would be reversed respectively. So if the pulse from cylinder 5 ran lean, the DME would actually modify the trim for cylinder 1 - because it has been reversed.

On a well built and maintained motor I would bet this would make minimal difference as everything is running smoothly, and the a/f ratios are much more likely to be pretty even on all 8 cylinders. But... this motor tends to shaft itself as it ages. When that begins...

Does a misfire on cylinder 1 that the DME reads actually mean cylinder 5 misfired? How will you tell?
Can the DME properly compensate each cylinder when pressing the go pedal under significantly increased boost pressure? How do I know that with this config?

Not nay-saying to be spiteful, quite the opposite. I want to tun the TU manifold, but what I see in complexity makes me very hesitant as it seems that as soon as I engage a tuner with the prospect of pulling this switch off thoroughly they tend to become non-responsive when they realize how much work is going to be involved.

The E70 X5M with non-TU S63 has a cross bank, twin scroll exhaust manifold already. Like Richard said, the firing order is the same. The design is better is all. The crossbank design and twin scroll is the big change from the N63...it's on most of the BMW announcement, manuals, flyers for the X5M/X6M from back then.

[greddy91]

Originally Posted by m5james

Bottom line is it's been done before...there's a couple threads floating around of who's done it, some unsuccessfully (he didn't tune for them and didn't do what Richard did because he was the first like 8yrs ago vs recently) and those who paid $15000 to make them successful...we're practically a forgotten platform so now we're just trying to find a way to do it without spending $15000 to do so - https://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=638340

Totally get it and have seen that thread previously. What I'm saying in short is, simply swapping o2 sensor locations doesn't make sense to me as a true fix or even, why it makes a difference at all other than lying to the DME. You still have 4 misread cylinders in total either way; two per bank. Tune is still required.

Originally Posted by jandref321

The E70 X5M with non-TU S63 has a cross bank, twin scroll exhaust manifold already. Like Richard said, the firing order is the same. The design is better is all. The crossbank design and twin scroll is the big change from the N63...it's on most of the BMW announcement, manuals, flyers for the X5M/X6M from back then.

False. There is no crossbank manny on the E70 non-TU. 1-4 on one turbo, 5-8 on the other. The TU manny is crossbank.

I am not arguing the firing order at all... I don't understand why we're stuck on that. The TU manny (and F10 M5) "design" improvement is that the flow is concentrated and consistently pulsing the exhaust wheel of each turbo.

Overall I'm agreeing with most everything you guys said - this would be better, it has been done before, the design is superior, gains are to be had... etc.

It REQUIRES a tune and no-one to my knowledge has found a tuner in the US willing to commit to the mod as of yet.

Show me a tuner that says, "I can tune the DME stack to read the correct cylinders on the correct sensors after TU manny install" and I'll be next in line.

Until then, we're just pipe dreaming of having TU hp/trq numbers on a non-TU motor.

[frankenm]

Originally Posted by m5james

we're practically a forgotten platform so now we're just trying to find a way to do it without spending $15000 to do so -

We're not forgotten just overlooked for now ....

Originally Posted by greddy91

Show me a tuner that says, "I can tune the DME stack to read the correct cylinders on the correct sensors after TU manny install" and I'll be next in line.

Sent you a PM

[RichardH]

So doing more research check what schnizter have to say
https://www.ac-schnitzer.de/en/bmw/m...0-x6m-e71.html

https://www.g-power.com/artikeldetai....php?details=1

https://www.g-power.com/artikeldetai....php?details=1

[greddy91]

Originally Posted by frankenm

Sent you a PM

Got it; keep me in the loop if you make some ground on US soil please. Specifically looking for remote tune option. Not going to fool with sending a DME in for a canned tune for this config.

Originally Posted by RichardH

So doing more research check what schnizter have to say
https://www.ac-schnitzer.de/en/bmw/m...0-x6m-e71.html

https://www.g-power.com/artikeldetai....php?details=1

https://www.g-power.com/artikeldetai....php?details=1

You're killing me smalls... all of this reads: "Bring your X5M to Germany for tuning."

Last time for the cheap seats...

Possible - Yes!
Confirmed completed in the U.S. - No!

Not buying manifolds and turbos to then do some janky O2 swapping to maybe help not prematurely kill my fresh built motor.

Neither should any of you IMO.

[jandref321]

Originally Posted by greddy91

False. There is no crossbank manny on the E70 non-TU. 1-4 on one turbo, 5-8 on the other. The TU manny is crossbank.

I am not arguing the firing order at all... I don't understand why we're stuck on that. The TU manny (and F10 M5) "design" improvement is that the flow is concentrated and consistently pulsing the exhaust wheel of each turbo.

Overall I'm agreeing with most everything you guys said - this would be better, it has been done before, the design is superior, gains are to be had... etc.

I took these first two photos just now on my 2012 E70 X5M with non-TU S63 engine...They are crossbank.




Here are three different crops from three different 2012 X5M brochures showing that the headers are crossbank and in the same order as TU headers:





Here is an article from 2009 describing the new cross bank manifold on the new BMW X5M engine: S63

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2009/05/01...otor-in-depth/


Here is an engineering journal where some smart guys talk about their new development on the E70 X5M engine in January 2010:


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03227014


Here is an article on the world premier of the 2010 E70 X5M detailing the cross bank manifold invention:

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...auto-show.html

[greddy91]

Originally Posted by jandref321

I took these first two photos just now on my 2012 E70 X5M with non-TU S63 engine...They are crossbank.




Here are three different crops from three different 2012 X5M brochures showing that the headers are crossbank and in the same order as TU headers:





Here is an article from 2009 describing the new cross bank manifold on the new BMW X5M engine: S63

http://www.bimmerfile.com/2009/05/01...otor-in-depth/


Here is an engineering journal where some smart guys talk about their new development on the E70 X5M engine in January 2010:


https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF03227014


Here is an article on the world premier of the 2010 E70 X5M detailing the cross bank manifold invention:

https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...auto-show.html

And now I will eat crow and write a hate mail message. I had a long dialogue with a tuner who convinced me that this was not the case and that the DME stack had to be tuned entirely different based on dedicated bank to cross bank.

I feel as though I have been had and thank all of you for your patience and fact representation here to prove me wrong.

Someone has some explaining to do and now I'm pissed further cause I missed a smoking deal on the TU manifold for no other reason than misinformation.

Grrrr.

[RichardH]

I can definitely confirm they are cross bank.
Poured some water down the manifold at cylinder 5, water came out at cylinder 3

[jandref321]

I think people just don’t know in general...BMW told me they were separate before when I was having smoke coming out of left tail pipe; they said the issue had to be on bank 2. The S63 was just a stepping stone the the TU and is only on this platform so no reason to be knowledgeable on an engine that was only produced for 3 years. Hopefully lower prices and more owners willing to mod will help drive more information on capabilities.

[m5james]

Admittedly even I've been thrown for a loop sometimes based on pics I've seen. I think the confusion comes between N63 and S63 headers looking almost the same from the outside, there looks to be a gap between the two banks, but looking closely to the S63 version shows crossovers. The S63 design looks far less efficient than the S63TU design.

I'm still curious as to why Richard had to swap 02 sensors from left to right. Not to muddy the waters but Richard and I we're talking about sensor reading errors he was having (spikes of 20:1 while driving, which I also have) and he installed new sensors and it went away. Richard, have you thought about swapping the 02's back to their original locations since you've got new sensors and maybe your code will go away?

[greddy91]

Originally Posted by m5james

Admittedly even I've been thrown for a loop sometimes based on pics I've seen. I think the confusion comes between N63 and S63 headers looking almost the same from the outside, there looks to be a gap between the two banks, but looking closely to the S63 version shows crossovers. The S63 design looks far less efficient than the S63TU design.

I'm still curious as to why Richard had to swap 02 sensors from left to right. Not to muddy the waters but Richard and I we're talking about sensor reading errors he was having (spikes of 20:1 while driving, which I also have) and he installed new sensors and it went away. Richard, have you thought about swapping the 02's back to their original locations since you've got new sensors and maybe your code will go away?

Agreed and tying in my original point... now with the knowledge that the manifolds are already crossbank... your o2 sensors are reading zero of the pulses from the correct cylinders correctly... assuring that the entire wrong bank is being fuel compensated.

Swapping them for an improvement of any sort makes no sense to me whatsoever.

[RichardH]

Originally Posted by greddy91

Agreed and tying in my original point... now with the knowledge that the manifolds are already crossbank... your o2 sensors are reading zero of the pulses from the correct cylinders correctly... assuring that the entire wrong bank is being fuel compensated.

Swapping them for an improvement of any sort makes no sense to me whatsoever.

So i swopped them back to original
Truck does not go into boost at all
Trims stuck at 25
No power
Lots of error codes.
Gives an error about trim control

[RichardH]

Any new updates.?

[ds77777]

Check k8 strasse, drop them your ECU file, give them the mods including changed manifold, they will send you updated ECU file In Russia it is part of stage 2-3 update to swap manifolds.It is known you losing at bottom, but gaining on top.For city not really best solution , but for 1/4 runs it is working

[0-60Motorsports]

Guys i have a set of S63tu exhaust manifolds available to me at a decent price, was wondering if I should go ahead. Just need confirmation if they are a straight swap to X5M E70 S63 Turbos. Thanks.

[frankenm]

Originally Posted by 0-60Motorsports

Guys i have a set of S63tu exhaust manifolds available to me at a decent price, was wondering if I should go ahead. Just need confirmation if they are a straight swap to X5M E70 S63 Turbos. Thanks.

No they won’t fit they only fit the TU turbos

[0-60Motorsports]

Originally Posted by frankenm

No they won’t fit they only fit the TU turbos

Thanks brother