3rd gen S63 motor more reliable?

[BMW-SRT]

I tried to do some research on changes made to the third gen S63 motor being used in the 2021 X5M, and I couldn't find any good info.

Im considering buying a new X5M but wondering if BMW has fixed the common issues with the S63 motor found in the 1st and 2nd gen variations of it.

my e70 x5m motor lasted to 90K miles, we rarely drove the car unless we needed the cargo area. I cant even remember the last time the car was driven "hard". I always kept up on maintenance, a couple months back my wife decides to take the M to target, as she is leaving the parking lot the car shuts off on her, when I get there I turn the car back on and it sounded horrible. We live a block away so I drive it back home, my friend who works at a euro indy shop stops by and right away he tells me it sounds like a spun bearing. Its about $10k give or take to get the engine rebuilt but we have other cars so im in no hurry to fix it.

I never liked the styling of the F85 X5M and with the S63tu having the same issues as ours I never really cared to buy one. But I love the look of the new X5M but scared of the same thing happening in the future. Any info on the new motor would be appreciated as i wanted to go look at a new X5M this weekend

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by BMW-SRT

I tried to do some research on changes made to the third gen S63 motor being used in the 2021 X5M, and I couldn't find any good info.

Im considering buying a new X5M but wondering if BMW has fixed the common issues with the S63 motor found in the 1st and 2nd gen variations of it.

my e70 x5m motor lasted to 90K miles, we rarely drove the car unless we needed the cargo area. I cant even remember the last time the car was driven "hard". I always kept up on maintenance, a couple months back my wife decides to take the M to target, as she is leaving the parking lot the car shuts off on her, when I get there I turn the car back on and it sounded horrible. We live a block away so I drive it back home, my friend who works at a euro indy shop stops by and right away he tells me it sounds like a spun bearing. Its about $10k give or take to get the engine rebuilt but we have other cars so im in no hurry to fix it.

I never liked the styling of the F85 X5M and with the S63tu having the same issues as ours I never really cared to buy one. But I love the look of the new X5M but scared of the same thing happening in the future. Any info on the new motor would be appreciated as i wanted to go look at a new X5M this weekend

Out of curiosity, How many miles per oil change and what oil did you use?

There was a rash of s63tu that had bad oil pumps but haven't heard much on later variants. Honestly your going to be hard pressed to find anyone s63TU3 over 60k miles. You will have a full warranty though anyway if you buy new.

[BMW-SRT]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Out of curiosity, How many miles per oil change and what oil did you use?

There was a rash of s63tu that had bad oil pumps but haven't heard much on later variants. Honestly your going to be hard pressed to find anyone s63TU3 over 60k miles. You will have a full warranty though anyway if you buy new.

two years ago i use to DD the M so maybe every 5k miles i would do the oil change, i would just buy the oil change kit from FCP euro. when the lock down started wife and I both worked from home full time so we didnt drive at all, then we bought a c63s amg then she got a new range rover, so the M just sat in the garage, I would turn it on once in a while to move it out of the garage when I wanted to wash one of the cars inside the garage, just sucks that it broke so randomly.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by BMW-SRT

two years ago i use to DD the M so maybe every 5k miles i would do the oil change, i would just buy the oil change kit from FCP euro. when the lock down started wife and I both worked from home full time so we didnt drive at all, then we bought a c63s amg then she got a new range rover, so the M just sat in the garage, I would turn it on once in a while to move it out of the garage when I wanted to wash one of the cars inside the garage, just sucks that it broke so randomly.

That's scary, but not unheard of. As for reliability, the rods are essentially the same between the different motor revisions. They still are rated for 700 torque. I don't know why bmw went with these cheap ass rods on a premium motor.

[Autobacs]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

That's scary, but not unheard of. As for reliability, the rods are essentially the same between the different motor revisions. They still are rated for 700 torque. I don't know why bmw went with these cheap ass rods on a premium motor.

Are they not supposed to be forged rods and if rated to 700 LB/FT torque, why would they be considered cheap unless they actually bend, unless you exceed their torque rating?

In any case, as much as I love my X5M, I honestly don't expect them to have Toyota reliability and will sell before they hit 100K miles. FYI, I also have an aftermarket warranty on it.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by BMW-SRT

two years ago i use to DD the M so maybe every 5k miles i would do the oil change, i would just buy the oil change kit from FCP euro. when the lock down started wife and I both worked from home full time so we didnt drive at all, then we bought a c63s amg then she got a new range rover, so the M just sat in the garage, I would turn it on once in a while to move it out of the garage when I wanted to wash one of the cars inside the garage, just sucks that it broke so randomly.

I have a feeling it was a stuck Injector, that in combination with BMWs joke of a CCV system allows oil dilution and eventually bearing failure.

N63 block is identical to the s63, except for pistons. I am tuned to M power levels and over 172K miles now on original engine. N63's got their injectors upgraded due to lawsuit that M's we're not part of and I replaced mine again at 120k miles as I knew I was going to push this engine to it's limit and wanted to take no chances. Would be very interesting to see what rev Injectors you have.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I have a feeling it was a stuck Injector, that in combination with BMWs joke of a CCV system allows oil dilution and eventually bearing failure.

N63 block is identical to the s63, except for pistons. I am tuned to M power levels and over 172K miles now on original engine. N63's got their injectors upgraded due to lawsuit that M's we're not part of and I replaced mine again at 120k miles as I knew I was going to push this engine to it's limit and wanted to take no chances. Would be very interesting to see what rev Injectors you have.

Interesting note about the oil dilution. My catch cans collect so much water vapor.

[SlowX6M]

So far my 2021 X6M is the first BMW I ever had that I did not need to add oil to yet, and its gone about 6k miles since its first oil change.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by SlowX6M

So far my 2021 X6M is the first BMW I ever had that I did not need to add oil to yet, and its gone about 6k miles since its first oil change.

Ouch, I would go ahead and get that changed asap. 6k on a high performance motor?

[SlowX6M]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Ouch, I would go ahead and get that changed asap. 6k on a high performance motor?

I'm leasing it, so I'm just going to follow the recommended schedule.

My 2012 x70 N63 has been consuming oil from day one, and since I own it, I always did oil changes every 5k miles. Even after the valve seal replacements, it still consumes a quart every 1000 miles.

I also leased a 2017 X6M, and after 20k I put on it over three year, it was also consuming a quart every 1000 miles.

I had a bunch of BMWs with the I6, and they were much better, but still needed the occasional quart top off.

[BigHunk]

Bmw had issues with some oil pumps, which some of them replaced proactively, mine X5M received updated one in 2017.

There is even topic about updated version.

Personally I think it's how lucky you are with those engines.

I have met a guy with 2010 X6M, 220tkm, original engine, never touched oil pump.

On the other side also met a guy with 2018 X5M 10tkm, burning 1lit of oil per 2000km.

[SlowX6M]

Originally Posted by BigHunk

Bmw had issues with some oil pumps, which some of them replaced proactively, mine X5M received updated one in 2017.

There is even topic about updated version.

Personally I think it's how lucky you are with those engines.

I have met a guy with 2010 X6M, 220tkm, original engine, never touched oil pump.

On the other side also met a guy with 2018 X5M 10tkm, burning 1lit of oil per 2000km.

Yep, thats what my 2017 X6M did, but I pretty much didn't care since it was leased. In the end of the day, I don't think oil consumption is a big deal, the far bigger issue with these engines is carbon build up from DI and EGR/CCV systems. These engines start losing a big chunk of their initial performance once they hit 40k miles, and by 100k miles they perform about as well as your average minivan while burning twice as much gas.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by SlowX6M

Yep, thats what my 2017 X6M did, but I pretty much didn't care since it was leased. In the end of the day, I don't think oil consumption is a big deal, the far bigger issue with these engines is carbon build up from DI and EGR/CCV systems. These engines start losing a big chunk of their initial performance once they hit 40k miles, and by 100k miles they perform about as well as your average minivan while burning twice as much gas.

Catch cans solve most of that gunk issue.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I have a feeling it was a stuck Injector, that in combination with BMWs joke of a CCV system allows oil dilution and eventually bearing failure.

N63 block is identical to the s63, except for pistons. I am tuned to M power levels and over 172K miles now on original engine. N63's got their injectors upgraded due to lawsuit that M's we're not part of and I replaced mine again at 120k miles as I knew I was going to push this engine to it's limit and wanted to take no chances. Would be very interesting to see what rev Injectors you have.

at least some e70 Ms also were part of a campaign/recall to replace injectors. Mine had all 8 replaced by bmw and got a silver badge on the door for going through the process. They didn’t undergo the ccp of course.

While the blocks may be the same, the pistons, heads, exhaust cams, timing system, oil pickups and possibly oil squirters on pistons are different between engines. As well as redline. https://www.***********.com/content....and-S63-motors

—-
Just for the record I’ve own(Ed) 3 BMW v8s. 2 have not burned oil 2016 550i (n63tu) and 2011 X5m (s63). The 2008 x5 4.8i (n62) had bad valve stems and smoked like Batman. As did my 2011 335d (m57) it burned 1 qt every 5k miles.

There have been a ton of changes between the 1st gen s63 and current gen in the newest x5ms A lot of cooling upgrades and others to Improve longevity. The engine bay layout is quiet different from lessons learned on the earlier engines. Expansion tank is relocated, number of lines crossing over the turbos is reduced and etc. All in the name of better heat management. Same thing with the 6s. I have no doubts these engines will be more reliable than the originals. The late 00s and early 10s seem to be a low point for bmw reliability. Current cars seem much better made for longevity.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...them-the-same/

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

at least some e70 Ms also were part of a campaign/recall to replace injectors. Mine had all 8 replaced by bmw and got a silver badge on the door for going through the process. They didn’t undergo the ccp of course.

While the blocks may be the same, the pistons, heads, exhaust cams, timing system, oil pickups and possibly oil squirters on pistons are different between engines. As well as redline. https://www.***********.com/content....and-S63-motors

—-
Just for the record I’ve own(Ed) 3 BMW v8s. 2 have not burned oil 2016 550i (n63tu) and 2011 X5m (s63). The 2008 x5 4.8i (n62) had bad valve stems and smoked like Batman. As did my 2011 335d (m57) it burned 1 qt every 5k miles.

There have been a ton of changes between the 1st gen s63 and current gen in the newest x5ms A lot of cooling upgrades and others to Improve longevity. The engine bay layout is quiet different from lessons learned on the earlier engines. Expansion tank is relocated, number of lines crossing over the turbos is reduced and etc. All in the name of better heat management. Same thing with the 6s. I have no doubts these engines will be more reliable than the originals. The late 00s and early 10s seem to be a low point for bmw reliability. Current cars seem much better made for longevity.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...them-the-same/

Originally Posted by Thecastle

at least some e70 Ms also were part of a campaign/recall to replace injectors. Mine had all 8 replaced by bmw and got a silver badge on the door for going through the process. They didn’t undergo the ccp of course.

While the blocks may be the same, the pistons, heads, exhaust cams, timing system, oil pickups and possibly oil squirters on pistons are different between engines. As well as redline. https://www.***********.com/content....and-S63-motors

—-
Just for the record I’ve own(Ed) 3 BMW v8s. 2 have not burned oil 2016 550i (n63tu) and 2011 X5m (s63). The 2008 x5 4.8i (n62) had bad valve stems and smoked like Batman. As did my 2011 335d (m57) it burned 1 qt every 5k miles.

There have been a ton of changes between the 1st gen s63 and current gen in the newest x5ms A lot of cooling upgrades and others to Improve longevity. The engine bay layout is quiet different from lessons learned on the earlier engines. Expansion tank is relocated, number of lines crossing over the turbos is reduced and etc. All in the name of better heat management. Same thing with the 6s. I have no doubts these engines will be more reliable than the originals. The late 00s and early 10s seem to be a low point for bmw reliability. Current cars seem much better made for longevity.

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...them-the-same/

While it's true the exhaust cam is different to work optimally with the pulse tuned manifolds, the Heads are identical except for the part stamped that says S63 on them, I've seen them side by side as is the timing system (chains, cam adjustments units, intake/exhaust valves, rockers, springs, vamos solenoids, etc are all identical and share same part numbers between the two engines. The entire purpose of the N63 was to bring down the production cost of the S63, gone are the days of the M only engine such as the V10. But that is besides the point, I brought up they are nearly identical to illustrate there must be an outside factor causing so many bearing failures as it can not be faulty design unless one of the machining tweaks the S63 gets to improve track performance and longevity such as additional oil sprayers had a flaw during production

I still think oil dilution over many years of use caused by bad leaky injectors/faulty CCV system causes the majority of these cases on combo with BMW's insanity on 7k+ mile oil changes since nothing else is ever found wrong, just shot bearings. While some of the M's we're notified, if memory serves unlike the n63 which had the lawsuit that forced BMW's hand so they proactively had to notify each owner, an M owner had to specifically ask for it and Canadians owners were not included at all in it.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

While it's true the exhaust cam is different to work optimally with the pulse tuned manifolds, the Heads are identical except for the part stamped that says S63 on them, I've seen them side by side as is the timing system (chains, cam adjustments units, intake/exhaust valves, rockers, springs, vamos solenoids, etc are all identical and share same part numbers between the two engines. The entire purpose of the N63 was to bring down the production cost of the S63, gone are the days of the M only engine such as the V10. But that is besides the point, I brought up they are nearly identical to illustrate there must be an outside factor causing so many bearing failures as it can not be faulty design unless one of the machining tweaks the S63 gets to improve track performance and longevity such as additional oil sprayers had a flaw during production

I still think oil dilution over many years of use caused by bad leaky injectors/faulty CCV system causes the majority of these cases on combo with BMW's insanity on 7k+ mile oil changes since nothing else is ever found wrong, just shot bearings. While some of the M's we're notified, if memory serves unlike the n63 which had the lawsuit that forced BMW's hand so they proactively had to notify each owner, an M owner had to specifically ask for it and Canadians owners were not included at all in it.

You made me more more curios, so I decided to take a look at some differences between the N63/S63. You're right they are in many ways the same.
* Though I read the cylinder heads are indeed different and a quick look on real oem shows the N63 is p/n 11127573933 and the S63 is p/n 11127586173 they are also different prices. My understanding was the heads are made of a different alloy int he S63 that has more heat tolerance, and possibly more cooling passages.
*The N63 has VANOS, the S63 does not have VANOS, it was added in the S63TU on the M5.
*Timing chain parts are identical
*Intake manifolds have different part numbers, don't know why they are different. MAF (N63) vs no MAF S63
*rods and bearings are the same
*exhaust cams are different (probably due to twin scroll non-vanos design).

I think thats one of the best theories I've heard so far about why there is an occasional rod bearing failure on the S63s. I also suspect that its contributed in some cases by changing hands a lot and not having maintenance. Also a lot of folks using the wrong oil (too thick) and tuning. I'd be easy to test for on a car with rod bearing failure doing an oil analysis to see if there is a lot of fuel dilution.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

While it's true the exhaust cam is different to work optimally with the pulse tuned manifolds, the Heads are identical except for the part stamped that says S63 on them, I've seen them side by side as is the timing system (chains, cam adjustments units, intake/exhaust valves, rockers, springs, vamos solenoids, etc are all identical and share same part numbers between the two engines. The entire purpose of the N63 was to bring down the production cost of the S63, gone are the days of the M only engine such as the V10. But that is besides the point, I brought up they are nearly identical to illustrate there must be an outside factor causing so many bearing failures as it can not be faulty design unless one of the machining tweaks the S63 gets to improve track performance and longevity such as additional oil sprayers had a flaw during production

I still think oil dilution over many years of use caused by bad leaky injectors/faulty CCV system causes the majority of these cases on combo with BMW's insanity on 7k+ mile oil changes since nothing else is ever found wrong, just shot bearings. While some of the M's we're notified, if memory serves unlike the n63 which had the lawsuit that forced BMW's hand so they proactively had to notify each owner, an M owner had to specifically ask for it and Canadians owners were not included at all in it.

You made me more more curios, so I decided to take a look at some differences between the N63/S63. You're right they are in many ways the same.
* Though I read the cylinder heads are indeed different and a quick look on real oem shows the N63 is p/n 11127573933 and the S63 is p/n 11127586173 they are also different prices. My understanding was the heads are made of a different alloy int he S63 that has more heat tolerance, and possibly more cooling passages.
*Timing chain parts are identical
*Intake manifolds have different part numbers, don't know why they are different. MAF (N63) vs no MAF S63
*rods and bearings are the same
*exhaust cams are different (probably due to twin scroll design).

I think thats one of the best theories I've heard so far about why there is an occasional rod bearing failure on the S63s. I also suspect that its contributed in some cases by changing hands a lot and not having maintenance. Also a lot of folks using the wrong oil (too thick) and tuning. I'd be easy to test for on a car with rod bearing failure doing an oil analysis to see if there is a lot of fuel dilution.

[Thecastle]

Here is some more good info on the BMW n/s63 variations.

https://www.bimmerworld.com/About-Us...ne-Variations/

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

You made me more more curios, so I decided to take a look at some differences between the N63/S63. You're right they are in many ways the same.
* Though I read the cylinder heads are indeed different and a quick look on real oem shows the N63 is p/n 11127573933 and the S63 is p/n 11127586173 they are also different prices. My understanding was the heads are made of a different alloy int he S63 that has more heat tolerance, and possibly more cooling passages.
*Timing chain parts are identical
*Intake manifolds have different part numbers, don't know why they are different. MAF (N63) vs no MAF S63
*rods and bearings are the same
*exhaust cams are different (probably due to twin scroll design).

I think thats one of the best theories I've heard so far about why there is an occasional rod bearing failure on the S63s. I also suspect that its contributed in some cases by changing hands a lot and not having maintenance. Also a lot of folks using the wrong oil (too thick) and tuning. I'd be easy to test for on a car with rod bearing failure doing an oil analysis to see if there is a lot of fuel dilution.

That info isn't correct, S63 absolutely has VANOS, both engines use the same cam adjusters, VANOS solenoids, etc. Heads are the same, just difference part numbers as BMW does machine it more (supposedly) but the castings are the same.

The upper intakes are completely different as well as the turbos, exhaust, etc. Lower intakes that actually bolt to the heads are identical, they actually didn't change until the TU3. Which is a shame, as their design is an absolute joke. If you're ever see them in person, you will know what I mean

The S63, starts off life as a N63, then receives additional upgrades to make it M worthy. Again BMW did this go keep costs down, this is why over 95 percent of the parts are the same between the two. It's much more cost effective to take an engine block and add some machining to the end process for additional oil cooling or taking a crank and balancing it more then to have a completely different cast or design. No more S65's, BMW lost their ass on that one.

The real question is, all of the upgrades the S63 received should have made it much more reliable then the N63, yet it appears it eats bearings much more compared to the N63. Was there a flaw in the additional machining the S63 received? Or perhaps if it is a injector issue, BMW was much more aggressive on this due to the lawsuit and many n63 owners received new engines or had the CCP done that replaced all the injectors and CCV tubes.

I think it's a combo of bad CCV design (only the original s63 and n63 have cheesy plastic valves in th CCV lines that if get stuck, will apply full boost pressure to your crankcase) and leaky/faulty injectors. Without a properly functional CCV system, fuel from leaky injectors can't boil off from the oil and dilution occurs, eventually wearing out the bearings so they can no longer hold an oil film and failure eventually occurs.

All of this got me thinking, there is a test in ISTA that you can run on the injectors, as soon as I get some time this weekend I'll make a video of it for n63/s63 owners. Would be a good idea for everyone to do as a leaky injector will not trigger a check engine light until it's too late.

[SlowX6M]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

All of this got me thinking, there is a test in ISTA that you can run on the injectors, as soon as I get some time this weekend I'll make a video of it for n63/s63 owners. Would be a good idea for everyone to do as a leaky injector will not trigger a check engine light until it's too late.

Do the replacement injectors still fail? Mine were placed I think later 2014 or early 2015.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by SlowX6M

Do the replacement injectors still fail? Mine were placed I think later 2014 or early 2015.

I think the Index 12 injectors are pretty solid to 100K miles as you don't see or hear much chatter on them failing. However around 2014/2015, Index 11 was still being used so it is possible you have index 11 and not 12. I would verify you have index 12. Its super tight to see when they are installed but you can just barely make out the index make on the side of them if you look closely with a automotive or dental mirror (or better yet a borescope)

With all that being said, nothing is immune from the passage of time, so even if you are low on miles, testing them now with ISTA since they are at the 6 year mark is good preventive maintenance.

[SlowX6M]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I think the Index 12 injectors are pretty solid to 100K miles as you don't see or hear much chatter on them failing. However around 2014/2015, Index 11 was still being used so it is possible you have index 11 and not 12. I would verify you have index 12. Its super tight to see when they are installed but you can just barely make out the index make on the side of them if you look closely with a automotive or dental mirror (or better yet a borescope)

With all that being said, nothing is immune from the passage of time, so even if you are low on miles, testing them now with ISTA since they are at the 6 year mark is good preventive maintenance.

I think I am at around 70k miles, but its really an extra car that's barely being driven, but I am very rectal about maintenance, lol. The part number they used is 13-53-8-648-937