X5M broke after DP/exhaust/tune

[trillypop]

Hey guys,

2013 X5M. 90k miles. Wife's truck. I'm not intimately familiar with BMWs, so looking for some advice. I just fix it for her when it breaks as I spend plenty of time upgrading my own cars, but recently she got the mod bug. Anyways, hoping you could help me shed some light on this. It's a weird scenario.
I loaded a Velos "stage 2+" tune last week, and just got around to installing catless OEM downpipes and full titanium Akrapovic exhuast earlier today. Everything went smoothly, drove it for 30 minutes and it was awesome. Then I took the truck to go over to my buddies house to watch UFC and trouble struck. I was driving along casually at about 40mph, and decided to hit the shift lever to the left to engage "sport mode," and immediately I got a dynamic drive malfunction error on the infotainment screen and the car went into limp mode. I figured I would pull over and restart the car and all would be good. Well, after I shut off the car, it wouldn't start. Sounded like a bad starter to me. It would barely crank at all, and after trying a bunch of times white smoke came from under the car. My wife drove out with my car computer and some tools, and I scanned the car. The only code I got was A0B4 (fault engine start starter). So I manually put the car in neutral and got towed home. Then the car started normally and I drove off the tow truck! It's late so I haven't re-scanned the car and didn't dare risk taking it for a drive, but I'm stumped.
The only other thing I have done to the car recently was install a new AGM battery about 3 days ago which I have not registered yet (dang bavarian technic doesn't have that feature enabled on the e70 x5m so I need to get carly or take it to an indy and just pay the money). Not sure if that could have anything to do with it, but doesn't seem connected.
Anyways, I'll update tomorrow with what I find. Am going to re-scan the truck and get under and look at the starter. I don't think I damaged any of the wires while doing the exhaust, but it's possible. Any thoughts on what to do next? Starter? Transmission? Thanks all!

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Hey guys,

2013 X5M. 90k miles. Wife's truck. I'm not intimately familiar with BMWs, so looking for some advice. I just fix it for her when it breaks as I spend plenty of time upgrading my own cars, but recently she got the mod bug. Anyways, hoping you could help me shed some light on this. It's a weird scenario.
I loaded a Velos "stage 2+" tune last week, and just got around to installing catless OEM downpipes and full titanium Akrapovic exhuast earlier today. Everything went smoothly, drove it for 30 minutes and it was awesome. Then I took the truck to go over to my buddies house to watch UFC and trouble struck. I was driving along casually at about 40mph, and decided to hit the shift lever to the left to engage "sport mode," and immediately I got a dynamic drive malfunction error on the infotainment screen and the car went into limp mode. I figured I would pull over and restart the car and all would be good. Well, after I shut off the car, it wouldn't start. Sounded like a bad starter to me. It would barely crank at all, and after trying a bunch of times white smoke came from under the car. My wife drove out with my car computer and some tools, and I scanned the car. The only code I got was A0B4 (fault engine start starter). So I manually put the car in neutral and got towed home. Then the car started normally and I drove off the tow truck! It's late so I haven't re-scanned the car and didn't dare risk taking it for a drive, but I'm stumped.
The only other thing I have done to the car recently was install a new AGM battery about 3 days ago which I have not registered yet (dang bavarian technic doesn't have that feature enabled on the e70 x5m so I need to get carly or take it to an indy and just pay the money). Not sure if that could have anything to do with it, but doesn't seem connected.
Anyways, I'll update tomorrow with what I find. Am going to re-scan the truck and get under and look at the starter. I don't think I damaged any of the wires while doing the exhaust, but it's possible. Any thoughts on what to do next? Starter? Transmission? Thanks all!

I would Check the engine ground straps first, two on truck, one by front diff/steering rack, other is in back welded to exhaust and bolted to muffler hanger. Possible main strap is failing and would try to go through secondary strap on exhaust, if aftermarket muffler didn't come with ground strap it would amplify stress on main ground strap, especially if it is compromised.

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I would Check the engine ground straps first, two on truck, one by front diff/steering rack, other is in back welded to exhaust and bolted to muffler hanger. Possible main strap is failing and would try to go through secondary strap on exhaust, if aftermarket muffler didn't come with ground strap it would amplify stress on main ground strap, especially if it is compromised.

Aftermarket exhaust did not come with ground strap, and in fact when I removed the factory exhaust I found the OEM strap to be broken so I just got rid of it. Thanks for the reply. I'll check it out tomorrow.
Do you think I could have burned the starter out? What was all the smoke?

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Aftermarket exhaust did not come with ground strap, and in fact when I removed the factory exhaust I found the OEM strap to be broken so I just got rid of it. Thanks for the reply. I'll check it out tomorrow.
Do you think I could have burned the starter out? What was all the smoke?

Possible but you said it started normal and drove off tow trailer. My guess would be compromised ground strap overheated and caused smoke. I like to start with the easiest/cheapest variable and work your way up, so double check main ground strap (remove driver side front wheel too get better access to it). I would add back the muffler ground strap regardless. BMW electronics are incredibly sensitive. If ground straps check out and still issues, recommend loading ISTA on a laptop and grab D-CAN cable for more comprehensive testing that no scanner or ob2 program can touch

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Possible but you said it started normal and drove off tow trailer. My guess would be compromised ground strap overheated and caused smoke. I like to start with the easiest/cheapest variable and work your way up, so double check main ground strap (remove driver side front wheel too get better access to it). I would add back the muffler ground strap regardless. BMW electronics are incredibly sensitive. If ground straps check out and still issues, recommend loading ISTA on a laptop and grab D-CAN cable for more comprehensive testing that no scanner or ob2 program can touch

I checked the main ground strap. It's intact but brittle. I also looked at the starter and it had some burnt looking grease/oil on the front of it. Wiring looked ok from what I could see. Car started up again normally again today. Pulled the codes again and got A0B4 (fault engine starter), A0B1 (SG input P N), 6E6F (DSC: EMF: Interface).

I think you're right that it's an electrical issue. And maybe I burned the starter partially. The only thing that changed this week that should/could be causing this is:
1. the new battery which is not registered and is AGM with slightly different specs than OEM. But I did this almost a week ago and the issue only started after the DP/exhaust install yesterday
2. lack of ground strap on the muffler. Interestingly, the ground strap was broken on the OEM exhaust so it shouldn't have been doing anything productive. Can I put a new ground strap to the titanium muffler?

Thanks for your expertise and advice here, I really appreciate it. I probably should check and just replace all of the ground straps, you think? Where are they exactly?

[trillypop]

Also, the main engine and muffler ground straps were green. I bet you’re right about that being the issue. Going to replace and will update.

One other thought. Could I add a temporary ground strap somewhere easily accessible just to get the car back in shape while I order and replace the OEM main strap? Is there something special about the location of the OEM ground strap? Or maybe just make a new ground strap and forget the OEM one altogether??
Thanks!

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Also, the main engine and muffler ground straps were green. I bet you’re right about that being the issue. Going to replace and will update.

One other thought. Could I add a temporary ground strap somewhere easily accessible just to get the car back in shape while I order and replace the OEM main strap? Is there something special about the location of the OEM ground strap? Or maybe just make a new ground strap and forget the OEM one altogether??
Thanks!

You sure could, I couple of spots to consider would be adding a short cable that jumps from one of the bolts that holds down the passenger side intercooler on the outer edge of the engine block to one of the bolts that holds down the support brace that runs from side to side by the radiator. To answer your previous question, titanium sucks as an electrical conduit but it still does conduct so I would still add on a ground strap on it. I noticed AutoZone has a pretty decent selection of universal ground straps and batter cables last time I was there. Don't think not registering your battery has anything to do with it, the most that will affect is not letting your truck fully charge your battery as the ECU still thinks its the old battery.

[trillypop]

Well, just to update this thread...

Pulled the lower oil pan and oil pump. Found some metal shavings. Rear cylinder rod bearings are worn but look not too bad. Probably one of the more forward cylinders, so upper oil pan is coming off and I guess we're doing a rod bearing job. Hopefully that's it and crankshaft is ok.

It may be possible that the car was sensing rod knock and caused it to shut down, and actually not a grounding issue altogether. Either way, it's getting a mid-life refresh now. Will do all the basic stuff like motor mounts, check timing chains, new oil pump, new starter, fix the grounds. PCV lines done not too long ago but will give me a chance to check them again. The upper and lower oil pans did have some slight weeping anyways so that will be fixed now. Hopefully as things progress the rest of the engine looks ok.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Well, just to update this thread...

Pulled the lower oil pan and oil pump. Found some metal shavings. Rear cylinder rod bearings are worn but look not too bad. Probably one of the more forward cylinders, so upper oil pan is coming off and I guess we're doing a rod bearing job. Hopefully that's it and crankshaft is ok.

It may be possible that the car was sensing rod knock and caused it to shut down, and actually not a grounding issue altogether. Either way, it's getting a mid-life refresh now. Will do all the basic stuff like motor mounts, check timing chains, new oil pump, new starter, fix the grounds. PCV lines done not too long ago but will give me a chance to check them again. The upper and lower oil pans did have some slight weeping anyways so that will be fixed now. Hopefully as things progress the rest of the engine looks ok.

Interesting, usually when a rod bearing seizes it won't start again so when you said it started normal and you just drove it off the tow truck I didn't think it was as bearing issue.

After the break in period on the engine refresh, highly recommend you switch to liquid moly 5-40 plus MOS2 additive. I'm at 175k miles now, my N63 is tuned to S63 power levels and I flog it every chance I get....The N63 and S63 use the same crank, bearings, oil pump, rods, everything but the pistons internally save for some extra oil sprayers and I attribute it's long life to the oil. I would also change oil every 5k miles if you are not already. IMHO bearing issues are cause by the horrific stock CCV system allowing oil dilution of the already stock thin oil . Catch cans are a great add-on also.

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Interesting, usually when a rod bearing seizes it won't start again so when you said it started normal and you just drove it off the tow truck I didn't think it was as bearing issue.

After the break in period on the engine refresh, highly recommend you switch to liquid moly 5-40 plus MOS2 additive. I'm at 175k miles now, my N63 is tuned to S63 power levels and I flog it every chance I get....The N63 and S63 use the same crank, bearings, oil pump, rods, everything but the pistons internally save for some extra oil sprayers and I attribute it's long life to the oil. I would also change oil every 5k miles if you are not already. IMHO bearing issues are cause by the horrific stock CCV system allowing oil dilution of the already stock thin oil . Catch cans are a great add-on also.

Yes still unclear exactly what the sequence of events was but I’ll update this thread as I learn more.
I have always used liqui moly 5w40 and ceratec in the x5m (as well as all of our German cars).

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Yes still unclear exactly what the sequence of events was but I’ll update this thread as I learn more.
I have always used liqui moly 5w40 and ceratec in the x5m (as well as all of our German cars).

Hmmm, did you notice anything strange about the oil pump or chain? When I checked mine I found the chain was about to fall off, an issue I believe most n63/s63's will have since they don't have a dynamic tensioner.

Also, I added a oil pressure gauge to mine, best piece of mind there is and can't believe BMW still doesn't put in oil pressure gauges to this day. Stock oil pressure warning does not trigger until 7psi, which is unbelievable and engine damage is already occuring.

I am making a few extra kits (defrost vent mounted gauge pod, sensor adapter, circuit to allow adjustable low oil pressure warning trigger) that I have been using. If you would like one pm me.

[trillypop]

Well, the lower oil pan is off and found the damage. #6 rod bearing spun and damaged the connecting rod and crankshaft.

Now the dilemma is what to do.

Option 1 - pull motor and rebuild it back to OEM with a new #6 rod and crankshaft, replace piston rings and other things while in there.

Option 2 - full motor build. Not really looking to go this direction as it's my wife's car and she is not going to want huge turbos, etc.

Option 3 - find a lower mileage X5M motor and do a rod bearing service and put that in.

Option 4 - buy a remanufactured motor from somewhere. Have seen pretty mixed reviews on Ghassan. Not sure of any other options here.


Does anyone have leads on a lower mileage S63 that I could purchase, or any insight regarding remanufactured motors from a reliable source?? Thanks guys.

[xJonRx]

My X5M is the same model year with the same mileage and I’m about to do the same modifications. This has me a little worried… how could you spin a rod bearing at random directly after installing some common mods? This is also my wife’s car lol. Looks like she’s going to be stock a while longer until I can determine our engines health pre-modifcations. Keep us posted with what transpires on your M.

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by xJonRx

My X5M is the same model year with the same mileage and I’m about to do the same modifications. This has me a little worried… how could you spin a rod bearing at random directly after installing some common mods? This is also my wife’s car lol. Looks like she’s going to be stock a while longer until I can determine our engines health pre-modifcations. Keep us posted with what transpires on your M.

I think the rod bearing was probably an inevitable thing that had been wearing, and the catastrophic failure was just bad coincidental timing. I almost never drive her car so I never heard any knock. The thread title is misleading now for sure.

I am ordering a rebuilt motor from RK and then shipping them back my core. Decided against the built motor and bigger turbos...it's just not worth the extra $10k to do it. As it sits, the rebuilt motor is $10k already. Plus new motor mounts, starter, ground straps, fluids, replacing coolant hoses and all the other "while you're in there" stuff, so probably right around $15k. This is why I don't own any BMWs, just my wife does

[Dawgz]

One thing to note is the oil you've been using.... liquiMoly 5w40.

I use the same and I recently sent in a sample to Blackstone... The report I got back was interesting.

The viscosity it came back as was within the high range of 5w30 and not even in range of 5w40. (Tested at 210F)

Not saying that is what caused the failure here but it's something to definitely consider. These motors run hot, in stock form the coolant hits 218 and the oil hits 225. At these temps the oil will become super thin.

Better oils out there which I've checked specs on recently. Redline, Motul and Amsoil, which respectively, have much high viscosity ranges at these operating temps.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

One thing to note is the oil you've been using.... liquiMoly 5w40.

I use the same and I recently sent in a sample to Blackstone... The report I got back was interesting.

The viscosity it came back as was within the high range of 5w30 and not even in range of 5w40. (Tested at 210F)

Not saying that is what caused the failure here but it's something to definitely consider. These motors run hot, in stock form the coolant hits 218 and the oil hits 225. At these temps the oil will become super thin.

Better oils out there which I've checked specs on recently. Redline, Motul and Amsoil, which respectively, have much high viscosity ranges at these operating temps.

I disagree about the oil, Liqui Moly has a legion of users between all of the BMW platforms. I myself am at 175k miles and I know many others well over 100k miles using this oil. The crank/rods/pistons/bearings/oil pump, etc are identical between the n63/s63 and arguably a tuned n63 pushing s63 power levels has a harder life as it lacks the extra oil sprayers, forged pistons, bigger turbos, and higher flowing intakes the S63 receives. Not saying Liqui Molly is perfect, but it is absolutely better then the shit 5-30 castrol BMW factory oil. Something else is at play here. I would be suspect of a defective CCV system or faulty injector causing oil dilution, issue with oil pump, or possibly a manufacturing/assembly mistake. If only one rod bearing is damaged all others look fine, Internal blocked oil passage would be at the top of the list too.

Question for Trillypop: Did you inspect the oil pump chain/sprocket?

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I disagree about the oil, Liqui Moly has a legion of users between all of the BMW platforms. I myself am at 175k miles and I know many others well over 100k miles using this oil. The crank/rods/pistons/bearings/oil pump, etc are identical between the n63/s63 and arguably a tuned n63 pushing s63 power levels has a harder life as it lacks the extra oil sprayers, forged pistons, bigger turbos, and higher flowing intakes the S63 receives. Not saying Liqui Molly is perfect, but it is absolutely better then the shit 5-30 castrol BMW factory oil. Something else is at play here. I would be suspect of a defective CCV system or faulty injector causing oil dilution, issue with oil pump, or possibly a manufacturing/assembly mistake. If only one rod bearing is damaged all others look fine, Internal blocked oil passage would be at the top of the list too.

Question for Trillypop: Did you inspect the oil pump chain/sprocket?

Well, in terms of viscosity if you check all the other brands I mentioned and their viscosity ranges at the temps our motors hit...LM is on the low end of the spectrum, their 5w40 really tests as a really good 30 grade. Not horrible but not the best you can give to the motor.


Just to clarify again, I'm not saying at all that LM caused this failure. But its just something to consider for the future.

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I disagree about the oil, Liqui Moly has a legion of users between all of the BMW platforms. I myself am at 175k miles and I know many others well over 100k miles using this oil. The crank/rods/pistons/bearings/oil pump, etc are identical between the n63/s63 and arguably a tuned n63 pushing s63 power levels has a harder life as it lacks the extra oil sprayers, forged pistons, bigger turbos, and higher flowing intakes the S63 receives. Not saying Liqui Molly is perfect, but it is absolutely better then the shit 5-30 castrol BMW factory oil. Something else is at play here. I would be suspect of a defective CCV system or faulty injector causing oil dilution, issue with oil pump, or possibly a manufacturing/assembly mistake. If only one rod bearing is damaged all others look fine, Internal blocked oil passage would be at the top of the list too.

Question for Trillypop: Did you inspect the oil pump chain/sprocket?

Yes, and it looked fine.

I will probably continue to use LM 5w40 with extra ceratec going forward.

Ordered a rebuilt longblock from RK at the tune of $9500. It's a tough pill to swallow, but wife and I felt it was the best option. Considered just moving onto a newer X5M but would have cost much more and she prefers the older bodystyle.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Yes, and it looked fine.

I will probably continue to use LM 5w40 with extra ceratec going forward.

Ordered a rebuilt longblock from RK at the tune of $9500. It's a tough pill to swallow, but wife and I felt it was the best option. Considered just moving onto a newer X5M but would have cost much more and she prefers the older bodystyle.

Ask RK what they think about LM.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Well, in terms of viscosity if you check all the other brands I mentioned and their viscosity ranges at the temps our motors hit...LM is on the low end of the spectrum, their 5w40 really tests as a really good 30 grade. Not horrible but not the best you can give to the motor.


Just to clarify again, I'm not saying at all that LM caused this failure. But its just something to consider for the future.

I still disagree that it is even something to put on the map of possibilities, especially with thousands of members using this oil, we would have reports left and right of failure and the association with the oil would quickly be made. In fact the opposite has happened, people started switching to LiquiMoly because people were reporting back such success with engines lasting so long on it. By suggesting the oil may be a factor, your basically saying liquimoly is worse then stock BMW oil as even stock BMW oil will get you to 100k miles.

As for the viscosity, are you comparing new oil or what Blackstone reported back on your test? From what I understand, Blackstone can not differentiate between viscosity changes caused by fuel dilution/detergent breakdown . I'm about to do another oil change and I'll send a sample in. Let's compare. I am a big proponent of higher crankcase vacuum (which aids in fuel contamination evaporation) plus I replaced my Injectors 40k miles ago, let's see if there is a difference in our viscosity ratings as my engine should represent ideal conditions with the low mileage injectors and running almost 10 times the crank case vacuum as stock.

Again I am not saying it's a perfect oil and on paper Motul and Redline appear better however it absolutely blows the stock Castrol BMW oil away in every metric. I am going to keep using it even if these other oils are better on paper and recommend the OP does too (unless RK says otherwise) as my engine represents an extreme case. When I purchased it, the previous owner ran the truck at such extreme temps the turbo oil return lines had coked up and completely clogged from the oil boiling in the lines. The carbon buildup in this engine was extreme, like nothing I had ever seen before. The previous owner abused this engine and it's not hard to do in the extreme temps of Arizona, there are 4 different auto manufacturer test tracks within the Phoenix valley for this very reason.

While I don't abuse this engine, I do USE this engine and push it hard, stage 3 custom tune and a JB4 stacked on top nets sub 4 second 0-60 and running low 12's so my power level is that of a s63 and to do this on an n63 with stock turbos and intakes means pushing everything to it's absolute limits. This translates into extreme combustion chamber temps as it's tiny turbos are outside their efficiency range and thus it is subjected to conditions that a s63 would never see not to mention I flog this engine daily, it's just to much fun not too. Now at 175k miles I attribute this longevity to the liqui moly oil and the mos2 additive (and ceretec additive every 30k).

For our family of engines, I can't recommend Liqui Moly enough from my own personal experience.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by trillypop

Yes, and it looked fine.

I will probably continue to use LM 5w40 with extra ceratec going forward.

Ordered a rebuilt longblock from RK at the tune of $9500. It's a tough pill to swallow, but wife and I felt it was the best option. Considered just moving onto a newer X5M but would have cost much more and she prefers the older bodystyle.

On the plus side it will add to the value of the truck, if you ever decide to sell.

As Dawgz mentioned, ask RK what they think of LM, your going to have to follow whatever they recommend anyway for the warranty. Also did they give any idea of what causes a random bearing failure like this?

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

On the plus side it will add to the value of the truck, if you ever decide to sell.

As Dawgz mentioned, ask RK what they think of LM, your going to have to follow whatever they recommend anyway for the warranty. Also did they give any idea of what causes a random bearing failure like this?

I will definitely ask them about what oil they recommend. I have been using the same LiquiMoly oil and ceratec in my german vehicles (VW, Audi, Porsche, and this BMW for over a decade), so I probably won't change unless they strongly recommend something specifically for the S63. I have also used Motul in the past.

I honestly didn't even go there with them. I basically called and said "please build me an engine ASAP" and they said "OK, send us money, we'd be happy to." I am just going to chalk it up to normal BMW wear and tear. We also purchased this vehicle used about 5 years ago with 50k miles (with incomplete service history). It was owned by Jimmy John (yea, that one), so maybe I'll call my local sandwich shop and ask if they want to foot the bill.