X5M broke after DP/exhaust/tune

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I still disagree that it is even something to put on the map of possibilities, especially with thousands of members using this oil, we would have reports left and right of failure and the association with the oil would quickly be made. In fact the opposite has happened, people started switching to LiquiMoly because people were reporting back such success with engines lasting so long on it. By suggesting the oil may be a factor, your basically saying liquimoly is worse then stock BMW oil as even stock BMW oil will get you to 100k miles.

As for the viscosity, are you comparing new oil or what Blackstone reported back on your test? From what I understand, Blackstone can not differentiate between viscosity changes caused by fuel dilution/detergent breakdown . I'm about to do another oil change and I'll send a sample in. Let's compare. I am a big proponent of higher crankcase vacuum (which aids in fuel contamination evaporation) plus I replaced my Injectors 40k miles ago, let's see if there is a difference in our viscosity ratings as my engine should represent ideal conditions with the low mileage injectors and running almost 10 times the crank case vacuum as stock.

Again I am not saying it's a perfect oil and on paper Motul and Redline appear better however it absolutely blows the stock Castrol BMW oil away in every metric. I am going to keep using it even if these other oils are better on paper and recommend the OP does too (unless RK says otherwise) as my engine represents an extreme case. When I purchased it, the previous owner ran the truck at such extreme temps the turbo oil return lines had coked up and completely clogged from the oil boiling in the lines. The carbon buildup in this engine was extreme, like nothing I had ever seen before. The previous owner abused this engine and it's not hard to do in the extreme temps of Arizona, there are 4 different auto manufacturer test tracks within the Phoenix valley for this very reason.

While I don't abuse this engine, I do USE this engine and push it hard, stage 3 custom tune and a JB4 stacked on top nets sub 4 second 0-60 and running low 12's so my power level is that of a s63 and to do this on an n63 with stock turbos and intakes means pushing everything to it's absolute limits. This translates into extreme combustion chamber temps as it's tiny turbos are outside their efficiency range and thus it is subjected to conditions that a s63 would never see not to mention I flog this engine daily, it's just to much fun not too. Now at 175k miles I attribute this longevity to the liqui moly oil and the mos2 additive (and ceretec additive every 30k).

For our family of engines, I can't recommend Liqui Moly enough from my own personal experience.

My test sample had 1800 miles on it. No measurable fuel/water dilution.

I spoke with LM and they started finger pointing to the lab saying their testing was inaccurate......if you look at the spec sheet for LM Leichtlauf high tech, it even states that brand new oil viscosity rating is measured at 12.9 @ 212°F. It doesn't take much to sheer it down with the temps these motors put it through.

Spec sheet:

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/ws/pi/arti...63?language=us

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

My test sample had 1800 miles on it. No measurable fuel/water dilution.

I spoke with LM and they started finger pointing to the lab saying their testing was inaccurate......if you look at the spec sheet for LM Leichtlauf high tech, it even states that brand new oil viscosity rating is measured at 12.9 @ 212°F. It doesn't take much to sheer it down with the temps these motors put it through.

Spec sheet:

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/ws/pi/arti...63?language=us

Your claims of the liqui Moly oil being a possible cause for his engine failure are still not adding up, so lets break it down:

Pro's for you Argument:
You have one point of data in your arguments favor, the viscosity being on the low side according to third party testing. However There are dozens of ways to test viscosity. What methodology does Blackstone use compared to what LM uses? And even within your own test, your wear data is Excellent. Surely if this oil was so horrible it would be showing up as you said these engines run so hot.

Con's for your Argument:
When comparing to other LL-01 5-40 spec oils such as Motul 8100, their viscosity is only slightly higher at 13.5 vs 12.9. Both are within spec of a 5-40 oil.

A much more important metric is the HTHS rating which is critical for turbo engines. LM is 3.5 or better which is considered excellent, beyond anything the vast majority of the 5-30 oils you are comparing it to. Motul is only slightly higher at 3.8. However even this is up for debate as Motul uses the ASTM D4741 method and LM uses the newer and more stringent ASTM D5481 method.

I can absolutely guarantee my engine has seen more abuse and higher temps then Trilly's. I live in Arizona, this truck has been in stuck in traffic multiple times when it is 118+ out and has seen extended periods of time in triple digit speeds while it is 100+ degrees. Its an N63, shares all of the same internals as the S63 minus forged pistons and oil cooling upgrades. It runs hotter then the S63 due to different intake designs and ECU programming. It has spent over 60K miles of its life with a stage 3 tune & jb4 to produce 550+hp. It has smaller and less efficient turbos and intakes which means each pound of boost causes more exhaust backpressure and higher combustion temps combined with higher compression then the S63. Every HP it makes is more taxing on its pistons, rods, crank, and bearings then the more efficient S63. I drive this truck HARD, I am surrounded long stretches of farmland with empty roads, and every day it sees multiple full throttle blasts. This engine has nearly double the mileage at 175K. When I cleaned up the carbon buildup caused by the notorious valve stem seals, the bearing surfaces on the cams and cam journals, as well as cylinder walls looked excellent (138K miles at the time, see pics)

How did my engine, running the same oil, producing the same power, last nearly double the mileage of his if the oil is to blame?

If the oil is to blame for the OP's engine failure, why did it selectively pick just the bearings in rod #6? Should not all of the bearing surfaces in his engine show signs of failure or excessive wear?

Searching the internet, I could not find any mentions or links of Liqui Moly causing engine failure.

I am not trying to be a jerk about this, and I am not saying LM is the best oil in the world, but it is in the top 5 and you make some very serious claims which go directly against mine and many others personal experience with this oil. More data and evidence is needed to back up implying the oil is at fault.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Your claims of the liqui Moly oil being a possible cause for his engine failure are still not adding up, so lets break it down:

Pro's for you Argument:
You have one point of data in your arguments favor, the viscosity being on the low side according to third party testing. However There are dozens of ways to test viscosity. What methodology does Blackstone use compared to what LM uses? And even within your own test, your wear data is Excellent. Surely if this oil was so horrible it would be showing up as you said these engines run so hot.

Con's for your Argument:
When comparing to other LL-01 5-40 spec oils such as Motul 8100, their viscosity is only slightly higher at 13.5 vs 12.9. Both are within spec of a 5-40 oil.

A much more important metric is the HTHS rating which is critical for turbo engines. LM is 3.5 or better which is considered excellent, beyond anything the vast majority of the 5-30 oils you are comparing it to. Motul is only slightly higher at 3.8. However even this is up for debate as Motul uses the ASTM D4741 method and LM uses the newer and more stringent ASTM D5481 method.

I can absolutely guarantee my engine has seen more abuse and higher temps then Trilly's. I live in Arizona, this truck has been in stuck in traffic multiple times when it is 118+ out and has seen extended periods of time in triple digit speeds while it is 100+ degrees. Its an N63, shares all of the same internals as the S63 minus forged pistons and oil cooling upgrades. It runs hotter then the S63 due to different intake designs and ECU programming. It has spent over 60K miles of its life with a stage 3 tune & jb4 to produce 550+hp. It has smaller and less efficient turbos and intakes which means each pound of boost causes more exhaust backpressure and higher combustion temps combined with higher compression then the S63. Every HP it makes is more taxing on its pistons, rods, crank, and bearings then the more efficient S63. I drive this truck HARD, I am surrounded long stretches of farmland with empty roads, and every day it sees multiple full throttle blasts. This engine has nearly double the mileage at 175K. When I cleaned up the carbon buildup caused by the notorious valve stem seals, the bearing surfaces on the cams and cam journals, as well as cylinder walls looked excellent (138K miles at the time, see pics)

How did my engine, running the same oil, producing the same power, last nearly double the mileage of his if the oil is to blame?

If the oil is to blame for the OP's engine failure, why did it selectively pick just the bearings in rod #6? Should not all of the bearing surfaces in his engine show signs of failure or excessive wear?

Searching the internet, I could not find any mentions or links of Liqui Moly causing engine failure.

I am not trying to be a jerk about this, and I am not saying LM is the best oil in the world, but it is in the top 5 and you make some very serious claims which go directly against mine and many others personal experience with this oil. More data and evidence is needed to back up implying the oil is at fault.

Ok maybe my comments came off super aggressive but they weren't meant to be, so my apologies... You know that I respect you.

I was only pointing out one aspect but I didn't say the oil was the absolute cause.

Also, the reason I advised to ask RK about what oil they recommend is because I already spoke to them, they consider LM to have a great marketing department and that's pretty much it.

In any case it's not horrible and likely not the cause, I agree...but you're also running a lower temp tstat which doesn't put your oil thru the same abuse as the stock tstat does.
(Running the block at 225-230F)

There are a bunch of variables.

[zoom750]

Sorry to hear about the engine. Had mine replaced with an RK build recently. I wonder if you'll be getting the rebuild from my core - also a 2013. If they got the engine in November from NJ, it's likely mine. Good luck.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

So the water thermostat had no real effect on my oil temps. They still sit around 220ish, unless I am really stepping on it for long periods of time, then they will hit 230+ Separate thermostat for the oil seems to keep it where BMW wants it. They make an aftermarket one lower temp for it through.

[trillypop]

Originally Posted by zoom750

Sorry to hear about the engine. Had mine replaced with an RK build recently. I wonder if you'll be getting the rebuild from my core - also a 2013. If they got the engine in November from NJ, it's likely mine. Good luck.

It's quite possible based on the timing. I'll ask to see if they have those details, and it'll be like your car giving mine a bone marrow transplant!