Help me solve 30FF / Reduced Power

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Bimmergeeks app called protool logs both banks.

Which version do you recommend?

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Which version do you recommend?

They update protool often, but the license works for all new versions.

[Thecastle]

I removed my BMS stage 1 today to allow me to start to do some real logging. I checked with a flashlight and the dealer really did replace all of the vacuum lines, and T-s that I can see. Not the vacuum pump or canisters howerver. I checked the pneumatic pressure converters and new lines, figured they might skip those because of the PIA factor in getting to them..

The issue has gotten worse, I can trigger it now climbing over passes in Houston (they aren't exactly steep). Basically just hit it max throttle without a downshift from 6th, and accelerate for 3-5 seconds and boom reduce power 30FF. But full throttle is no problem, even with the tuner on. It had so much power I actually got the traction control light to pop on while flooring it in a straight line. Damn, never new I could do that on an X5M. Its max throttle without a trans kickdown or (likely ecu commanded full throttle without a shift at around 2100rpm and boom).

[Thecastle]

I finally figured out how to trigger 30FF on demand. Just drive at 2000rpm, give it enough gas to be full power without a trans kick down. while applying the brakes to add extra drag, boom. Reduced power mode.

I've taken it to the dealer again and they are having their master mechanic look at it now that we can reproduce the problem without a trailer.

[Thecastle]

Just an update;

The dealer has been unsuccessful so far in finding the problem.

They have disassembled and reassembled the entire intake checking for leaks from the air filters to the intake manifolds. Smoke tests each time.

They have flashed the car to the newest software rev. Car's DDE software was original 2010 version.

The borroscoped the turbos, and waste gates close fine, turbo looks good.

Checked the entire vacuum system again.

Now they have hooked up a mechanical boost gauge to the intake and are logging to see if the sensors match and the IAT's stay in spec.

Car gets limp mode every time they floor it now.

Test drove a 2018 X5 5.0, as a potential replacement....

[Thecastle]

4 weeks in the dealer update.

Waste Gates have been ruled out, borescope check verified they are closing and sealing properly. Turbos do not seem to be the cause of the issue.

Dealer re-flashed my car to see if that would eliminate the problem - no dice.

Even though all the vacuum lines have been replaced by the dealer, they think it might possibly be a vacuum problem. They are hooking up gauges to test vacuum pressure on each line while reproducing the error.

Here is a live data log from when the error occurred recently while towing. Nothing our of the ordinary in the items logged. This is still a head scratcher. Part of what makes this hard is this is such a rare car, there are probably only a dozen or so E70 X5Ms in the whole Houston area, and most dealers see them maybe once a year, if at all. Many indy's have never seen one.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

I finally figured out how to trigger 30FF on demand. Just drive at 2000rpm, give it enough gas to be full power without a trans kick down. while applying the brakes to add extra drag, boom. Reduced power mode.

I've taken it to the dealer again and they are having their master mechanic look at it now that we can reproduce the problem without a trailer.

Wow. It's going to be very interesting to see what this turns out to be.

Stupid question but have you tried to reset adaptions after the BMS was removed?

[Thecastle]

Just a quick update on this problem. Its turned out no one thing was wrong with the X5M that causes this issue. There have been a lot of things "off" that have all contributed to the issue. The car has been in since before thanksgiving, and come out 1x for a trip over Christmas. It has become a project for the dealer.

So far things that have helped.
* reflash the entire car to the newest software version
* found and fixed multiple grounding issues that could cause bad sensor readings and problems with the ECU's. Grounding bad on fuel rail/injectors, ignition rail, and grounding strap bad for engine, surprised ECU's have not been damaged. Bad grounds are apparently a 650i thing
* bad sport exhaust valve, leaking vacuum
* now bad intake ducts between intercooler and engine (leaking only under full boost)

Car is running better, and better all of these made a difference. The last one is being done now, and we have hopes that all of these repairs will fix it.

Things that didn't seem to make a difference but probably helped.
* all new vacuum lines
* new filtered air ducts.

[Dawgz]

Hopefully no more codes!

[gan23]

I had this code too. Turns out they wanted to install new turbos but in the end it was a simple wastegate actuator pin that had fallen…so turbo bank 1 wasn’t working…. Dealer installed a new circlip on the wastegate and everything was back to normal

[Thecastle]

Glad to hear it! In my case, I'm beginning to loose faith it will be really fixed. They checked the waste gate actuation, and checked the waste gates with a borescope. All was fine. Mine only occurs under high load, say 2100rpm, 6th gear floored, which you encounter while towing all the time up hills. Still happens in lower gears too. Its just high loads that trigger it consistently, even driving up a mountain can do it.

The car has been in at the dealer since November. I've come by and test driven it several times when they think they have it fixed. Its MUCH better now, but still can be coaxed in to triggering a reduced power. Car otherwise runs great, and it feels faster than ever.

Grounding issues have been fixed
Vacuum lines replaced
Intake air ducts between intercoolers / turbos have been replaced
Multiple smoke tests. 02 sensors have been checked and etc.

We're getting close to concluding that it just wont be fixed, and its time to move on to another car. For most people this wouldn't be a major issue, but since we tow with it, its a constant annoyance.

[Thecastle]

Still in the dealer, been there since November. With a slight reprieve for Christmas.

Everything has been checked and rechecked. Got lucky someone else brought an e70 X5M in so they could compare to mine and run some tests and compare it to mine. Theirs does not trigger a 30FF of course reduced power mode.

Since we’ve replaced every bad or potentially bad part and ruled out the rest, the shop Forman who is very talented thinks that the engine computer dme was damaged due to all the grounding faults. So we’re replacing the computer. That’s really all that’s left at this point, and all the signs point to this. Since the problem is so strange, in that the car is running fine logs fine, tests fine but bam goes into reduce power mode for low boost. But the car never experiences low boost as verified with external gauges.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Still in the dealer, been there since November. With a slight reprieve for Christmas.

Everything has been checked and rechecked. Got lucky someone else brought an e70 X5M in so they could compare to mine and run some tests and compare it to mine. Theirs does not trigger a 30FF of course reduced power mode.

Since we’ve replaced every bad or potentially bad part and ruled out the rest, the shop Forman who is very talented thinks that the engine computer dme was damaged due to all the grounding faults. So we’re replacing the computer. That’s really all that’s left at this point, and all the signs point to this. Since the problem is so strange, in that the car is running fine logs fine, tests fine but bam goes into reduce power mode for low boost. But the car never experiences low boost as verified with external gauges.

Wow...hope that fixes it

[Thecastle]

New computer is in. Waiting for the test drive from the dealer. 2k for all new vacuum lines, 1.2k for all new intake piping, and 2k for engine computer replacement. 4 months at a dealer and Indy. We’re tapping out if this doesn’t fix the car. We’re going to trade it in for a ram 3500 if we can’t get it fixed.

[Thecastle]

Problem not solved. 4 months at the dealer and an Indy. Can’t fix it. Engine computer didn’t resolve the issue,

So Matilda (x5m name) has come home on hospice. It would be unethical to continue treatment, We’re going to live with issue and fix it by a code rest. My wife said, it’s time. Take it behind the barn and shoot it.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Problem not solved. 4 months at the dealer and an Indy. Can’t fix it. Engine computer didn’t resolve the issue,

So Matilda (x5m name) has come home on hospice. It would be unethical to continue treatment, We’re going to live with issue and fix it by a code rest. My wife said, it’s time. Take it behind the barn and shoot it.

I know you did the smoke tests, but were any high pressure tests done? I just checked mine to make sure I had no leaks and the smoke tests showed nothing but when I did a 25psi pressure test, I found a few fittings with mild leaks. What I did was grab a flexible coupling from home depot and printed up a endcap tapped for an air compressor fitting (standard 2inch cap will work fine too if you use a tire valve), set the compressor to 25psi, an install this on each inter cooler connection and used soapy water to track down the hissing if you have any. Links to everything below. Make sure to use duct tape or packaging tape around it to keep the rubber from over expanding as it is originally only rated to 6psi and you need to hit your intake with 25psi to properly test.

I have a feeling it might be cracked lower intakes. When I pulled mine, I found they were separating in a few spots and ended up epoxying them.

One last thing: Where the one-way valves for the Fuel tank Evap system checked? There is one on each side on the M lower intakes.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fernco-2...6-22/100096490

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Charlott...00HD/203811678

A video from Youtube on it:

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

I know you did the smoke tests, but were any high pressure tests done? I just checked mine to make sure I had no leaks and the smoke tests showed nothing but when I did a 25psi pressure test, I found a few fittings with mild leaks. What I did was grab a flexible coupling from home depot and printed up a endcap tapped for an air compressor fitting (standard 2inch cap will work fine too if you use a tire valve), set the compressor to 25psi, an install this on each inter cooler connection and used soapy water to track down the hissing if you have any. Links to everything below. Make sure to use duct tape or packaging tape around it to keep the rubber from over expanding as it is originally only rated to 6psi and you need to hit your intake with 25psi to properly test.

I have a feeling it might be cracked lower intakes. When I pulled mine, I found they were separating in a few spots and ended up epoxying them.

One last thing: Where the one-way valves for the Fuel tank Evap system checked? There is one on each side on the M lower intakes.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Fernco-2...6-22/100096490

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Charlott...00HD/203811678

A video from Youtube on it:

Thank you Sophisticated Redneck.

Great minds think alike. There are a lot of things we've done that were not covered in this thread. The shop manager and I talked about doing exactly this, a pressure test on the intake system and taking it up to 28psi. He was not there on Saturday when I went to pickup so I didn't discuss this with him. They did discover cracks in the air intake tube 13717589643 which was replaced. I've not done this in years, but I've done an intake pressure test on other cars even still have the pvc pipe thing.

I do not know if the one way valves for the fuel evap have been checked. Are you referencing part 13907619305? I replaced a lot of those lines myself over the years, but not those and I don't recall having the dealer do it.

I too suspect its possible the plastic intake manifolds are leaking. I'll ask about that as well, but a pressure test you'd think would catch it. But what's odd, is this problem also seems to be somewhat temperature sensitive.

Its not that they haven't made progress on this issue. The car runs far better than it did 4 months ago. Fixing the leaks made a difference and replacing the computer improved the difficulty of triggering the error. Its not any one thing that's been the smoking gun so far, but fixing all of the problems has improved it.

Originally, we just had to be cruising around 2000rpm encounter a hill and give it some gas and bam, reduced power mode. After all the work, to trigger it on command we lock the transmission into 6th gear. Floor it at around 2000rpm, and apply the brakes gently. Originally a small hill was all that was needed, now we have the car totally floored dragging breaks for 5-8 seconds. We have compared other E70 X5M's and they don't do this, but they will trigger (eventually) a warning for applying the brakes and throttle 15 seconds or so. But not a consistent 30FF like mine. This is our technique to reproduce the error on demand. It does not have to be in 6th gear to make it happen, just high engine load at lowish rpms.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Thank you Sophisticated Redneck.

Great minds think alike. There are a lot of things we've done that were not covered in this thread. The shop manager and I talked about doing exactly this, a pressure test on the intake system and taking it up to 28psi. He was not there on Saturday when I went to pickup so I didn't discuss this with him. They did discover cracks in the air intake tube 13717589643 which was replaced. I've not done this in years, but I've done an intake pressure test on other cars even still have the pvc pipe thing.

I do not know if the one way valves for the fuel evap have been checked. Are you referencing part 13907619305? I replaced a lot of those lines myself over the years, but not those and I don't recall having the dealer do it.

I too suspect its possible the plastic intake manifolds are leaking. I'll ask about that as well, but a pressure test you'd think would catch it. But what's odd, is this problem also seems to be somewhat temperature sensitive.

Its not that they haven't made progress on this issue. The car runs far better than it did 4 months ago. Fixing the leaks made a difference and replacing the computer improved the difficulty of triggering the error. Its not any one thing that's been the smoking gun so far, but fixing all of the problems has improved it.

Originally, we just had to be cruising around 2000rpm encounter a hill and give it some gas and bam, reduced power mode. After all the work, to trigger it on command we lock the transmission into 6th gear. Floor it at around 2000rpm, and apply the brakes gently. Originally a small hill was all that was needed, now we have the car totally floored dragging breaks for 5-8 seconds. We have compared other E70 X5M's and they don't do this, but they will trigger (eventually) a warning for applying the brakes and throttle 15 seconds or so. But not a consistent 30FF like mine. This is our technique to reproduce the error on demand. It does not have to be in 6th gear to make it happen, just high engine load at lowish rpms.

Yep those are the valves I was talking about for the evac system. If you do the high pressure test, it will test those too at the same time. I can't remember if you answered this already or not but were the turbos replaced or removed and wastegates inspected? On my old turbos they would close just fine and drum tight, however the wastegate was so worn out that they would not align with the port when they closed so I could occasionally get a low boost code.

I know you replaced the upper Tmaps but were the lower Tmap sensors on the lower intakes replaced yet?

Last thing to try - vacuum gauges on the wastegates so you can see in real time what they are doing under boost conditions. Maxtow makes some really nice vacuum/boost gauges. You can then hook them up to your lower intakes via the CCV tube to monitor boost in real time when your done with the troubleshooting =) It soooo nice seeing what your boost levels are for each bank are doing in real time.

https://www.amazon.com/MaxTow-Double.../dp/B0095Z2C2A

[Thecastle]

Yup, waste gates were checked. They went through their automated tests with flying colors. They also borescoped them to check and make sure they were seating properly. Turbos look to be fine, no shaft play, and waste gates operating as they should.

The dealer did hook up an external boost pressure gauge to both banks and drove around to verify that the sensors were reading correctly. They saw normal boost levels between 15-17psi. It varies a bit depending on conditions.

I replaced the upper t-map sensors, myself on both banks. The passenger side had both upper and lower replaced by the dealer. I replaced the uppers on both banks about a year later chasing this issue. I do not believe the lower was changed on the drivers side (but its possible). The low boost pressure issue is on the passenger side.

The only test I'm not sure they did was pressurizing the intake, but they said they were going to. I haven't had a chance to talk with the service manager who was personally doing a lot of the work.

They also replaced the spark plugs, checked the 02 sensors, smoke tested multiple times, disassembled and reassembled the whole intake a bunch of times, pressure tested the cooling loop on the intercoolers to check for internal leaks. Fixed 3 grounding issues, continuity checked all the wiring, and etc.

Troubleshooting this;
Replaced all vacuum lines in the car
checked vacuum lines for kinking or collapsing
replaced exhaust valve solenoid
boroscoped the turbos, checked wastage action.
smoke tested
replaced diverter valves
filtered air ducts replaced
all PCV lines replaced
pneumatic pressure converters replaced
nearly all map sensors (possibly all)
pressure tested turbo cooling system for coolant leaks
reflashed car multiple times
tried a piggy back tune
replaced plastic intake between turbos and intercooler
fixed grounding issues
checked wiring continuity
replaced engine computer

about the only things that haven't been replaced are the turbos, maybe 1 map sensor, intercoolers, intake manifolds, and those emissions components (possibly) you mentioned above. I've had so much replaced on this car, its hard to say if it hasn't been done already. We've been fighting this issue since 2018.

This is an irritating edge case, as a normal driver wouldn't see this problem now. But it crops up while towing frequently.

[JohnelP]

Hi,

I think you have proven the mechanical part in engine seems OK. I would take few steps back and look from a wider angle. I am not sure i would rule out the electrical portion still. or somewhere else. You have changed the wastegate vacuum control units and the DME + re-flash, but i missed the place where you/dealer verified the control signals from DME towards the wastegate control units do happen the right way. Remember, all the power train modules (especially Transmission control (EGS) and both DMEs are on the same PT-CAN bus (the PT CAN bus) and they sync up continuously.
This would be a scenario I would speculate. one hypothesis.
You drive normally. The wastegate will be partially open. You go uphill, or floor the throttle pedal. I expect DME to close completely the wastegate, engine starts spinning faster, the turbine in the torque converter accelerates. Say there is not enough oil in the transmission; torque converter would not run in the predefined parameters, and the comparison between the turbine speed and output speed sensor gets out of specs after few seconds. Transmission control module (EGS) flags the error to the DME that must reduce power. DME must reduce power (opens the wastegates) while you still try to accelerate/get more power. Accelerator module continue to sense the requirement for more power, sends it to DME while transmission control still flags imbalance. system interprets it as power train module error and cuts power. Further, I suspect the DME is getting confused between full throttle command and the open wastegate that must be kept -say half open- due to transmission request and flags the low boost error you can read. Control prevented to close the wastegate when full throttle. Could be the low boost error is triggered after the power train error is detected, and not before. Meaning the 30FF is not the root cause, but an effect/consequence.

What makes me believe this? Because on my car (it is a 6 speed manual with the N63 - 550i), two years ago, when the clutch started to slip beyond a certain limit, the control recognized the imbalance between engine speed and transmission output shaft speed, flagged me a warning the clutch is slipping and cut the power to the engine. Yes, it cut the power to the engine; i could barely drag the car home.....
Transpose this logic to an automatic transmission, and that would describe my judgement
Can my judgement be wrong? BY all means yes, but i shared my 2 cents.

I have noticed my car is very quick to cut the engine power every time a powertrain condition is not perfect. Been there 2 times. And in both cases the issue was not in the engine. Quite far away from the engine, if i may say so.

Seen this in bmw tis:
Signal <-> Transmitter <-> Receiver <-> Remarks

Engine data <-> Digital engine electronics <-> Electronic transmission control (EGS) <-> Engine speed, injection period, throttle valve position and engine temperature

Same, as per bmw TIS:
The following sensors are in the gearbox:

• Turbine speed sensor
• Output speed sensor
• Position sensor to detect the parking lock position
• Gearbox oil temperature sensor
• Substrate temperature sensors

================================================== ====================
I was following the channel of (Diagnose Dan). He run electrical troubleshooting at a higher level than average mechanic. Looking on how he approaches the electrical troubleshooting makes me believe we still have more to try before declaring surrender. He uses oscilloscopes, thing i have not seen too often in regular shops.
E.g this scenario:

[Thecastle]

Waste gates are vacuum controlled. The waste gates can be verified for operation by an ISTA test. They ran the tests and it passed, they also broscoped, and watched it happen. Waste gates are fine.

DME is flagging 30FF boost pressure implausible. ITs not that was verified with external gauges, and logging.

Other X5M's do not exhibit this behaviour, we tested others. No errors for the transmission. The errors we see are 30FF for bank 1, and some ground faults. After we replaced all the vacuum lines, intake parts and etc.

Those are all good suggestions and most of them we've already looked at and ruled out.

After suffering with it for 4 years, A lot of repairs done by me, trying 2 Indy's and 4 months at the dealer with their top tech and thousands of dollars. We traded it yesterday. So Matilda (x5M) is no longer our problem. I'll miss the M, and someone will have a pristine example, with everything new. But its no longer the right tool for us as we want a reliable car (which this has not been), that can tow and allow us to off road slightly. We picked up a used 2019 Ram 3500 4x4 with the HO Cummins yesterday.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Waste gates are vacuum controlled. The waste gates can be verified for operation by an ISTA test. They ran the tests and it passed, they also broscoped, and watched it happen. Waste gates are fine.

DME is flagging 30FF boost pressure implausible. ITs not that was verified with external gauges, and logging.

Other X5M's do not exhibit this behaviour, we tested others. No errors for the transmission. The errors we see are 30FF for bank 1, and some ground faults. After we replaced all the vacuum lines, intake parts and etc.

Those are all good suggestions and most of them we've already looked at and ruled out.

After suffering with it for 4 years, A lot of repairs done by me, trying 2 Indy's and 4 months at the dealer with their top tech and thousands of dollars. We traded it yesterday. So Matilda (x5M) is no longer our problem. I'll miss the M, and someone will have a pristine example, with everything new. But its no longer the right tool for us as we want a reliable car (which this has not been), that can tow and allow us to off road slightly. We picked up a used 2019 Ram 3500 4x4 with the HO Cummins yesterday.

Sorry to hear you had to let it go but understandable, you did everything you could and pretty much only thing left was to pull the engine and replace the lower intakes and that would have cost another 2-3k. I don't know what the previous owners before you did to that M, but I have a feeling it involved pissing off a supernatural entity because DAMN did that truck have issues.....

Can't go wrong with a 3500 as a tow rig, you can tow just about anything now and not worry about it.