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      04-20-2019, 09:34 PM   #1
dinonz
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Le Mans in the 60s - help me understand

I've been watching a show on the Shelby Daytona Coupe, which beat the Ferrari 250 GTO in the 60s, and then later, the Ford GT40 beat them too. That I know.

However - wasn't the 250 GTO a 3.0, and the Daytona Coupe a 4.7? And wasn't the GT40 a 6.0 or higher? On the surface it sounds like a bully beating up a smaller child, but at the same time - why was Ferrari running a 3.0 in a class that allowed much bigger engines?

Just wondered if someone could shed some light on this?
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      04-21-2019, 01:20 AM   #2
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GT40 had 3 different engines.. 2 different 4L's (one of them is Lotus engine) and 7 liters.. class was production GT.. 5L engine at most rule came later '66-'67.. 250 GTO should be around 300hp and its V12.. revs higher than GT40 4L engine which is probably im sure 5500-6000rpm at most.. and its 300-350hp also..

250GTO was a top-notch chassis you could find on the grid at that time with a fuel efficient engine with smooth and reliable V12.. as a package there were no better car at that time until Ford spent millions to beat Ferrari.. but as they say beating on the circuit wasnt enough to beat the Ferrari in customers mind..

sheer driving pleasure video of GTO.. even watching is super pleasant..



and here comes a pic of mine of that era..

https://www.instagram.com/p/1ioVsdsG...on_share_sheet
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      04-21-2019, 07:25 AM   #3
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Thanks - appreciate that!
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      04-21-2019, 08:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
I've been watching a show on the Shelby Daytona Coupe, which beat the Ferrari 250 GTO in the 60s, and then later, the Ford GT40 beat them too. That I know.

However - wasn't the 250 GTO a 3.0, and the Daytona Coupe a 4.7? And wasn't the GT40 a 6.0 or higher? On the surface it sounds like a bully beating up a smaller child, but at the same time - why was Ferrari running a 3.0 in a class that allowed much bigger engines?

Just wondered if someone could shed some light on this?
There's an old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement", having said that it's not all about power on a road course or track. Weight, breaking, suspension and handling can overcome a car with more power that doesn't perform as well going around corners, changing direction and slowing down. Watch the mini with the V8 Mustang at about the 6 min mark. The Mustang pulls away on the straight, but in the corners its no contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=t3ppTh3TYtA
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      04-21-2019, 01:14 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
There's an old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement", having said that it's not all about power on a road course or track. Weight, breaking, suspension and handling can overcome a car with more power that doesn't perform as well going around corners, changing direction and slowing down. Watch the mini with the V8 Mustang at about the 6 min mark. The Mustang pulls away on the straight, but in the corners its no contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=t3ppTh3TYtA
Yep - saw that in person in the 80s when BMW M3s were racing in Wellington, with the Aussi V8 Supercars. The M3s would win overall because of their handling.
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      04-21-2019, 01:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
There's an old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement", having said that it's not all about power on a road course or track. Weight, breaking, suspension and handling can overcome a car with more power that doesn't perform as well going around corners, changing direction and slowing down. Watch the mini with the V8 Mustang at about the 6 min mark. The Mustang pulls away on the straight, but in the corners its no contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=t3ppTh3TYtA
yeah actually GT40's big block was so heavy that, suspension and brakes were struggling pretty much but gaining time on the straights.. and that time they were no chicanes on the straight.. so it was even easier for more powerful cars to make some time.. that 5L top rule and those chicanes came at the same year.. and Ford had to make a proper chassis for following year with 4.7L and won it again.. thats called ambition..

and for that saying.. i guess it started to change in last 5-10 years pretty much.. another Le Mans winner Porsche 919 has a 2L engine with electric power and its not even an inline 2L engine.. its V4 turbocharged.. a very compact engine..
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      05-13-2019, 12:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dinonz View Post
I've been watching a show on the Shelby Daytona Coupe, which beat the Ferrari 250 GTO in the 60s, and then later, the Ford GT40 beat them too. That I know.

However - wasn't the 250 GTO a 3.0, and the Daytona Coupe a 4.7? And wasn't the GT40 a 6.0 or higher? On the surface it sounds like a bully beating up a smaller child, but at the same time - why was Ferrari running a 3.0 in a class that allowed much bigger engines?

Just wondered if someone could shed some light on this?
There's an old saying, "there's no replacement for displacement", having said that it's not all about power on a road course or track. Weight, breaking, suspension and handling can overcome a car with more power that doesn't perform as well going around corners, changing direction and slowing down. Watch the mini with the V8 Mustang at about the 6 min mark. The Mustang pulls away on the straight, but in the corners its no contest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...;v=t3ppTh3TYtA
A couple days after we first heard that saying, the second version appeared: 'The only substitute for cubic inches is rectangular dollars'.
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      05-13-2019, 04:56 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
250GTO was a top-notch chassis you could find on the grid at that time with a fuel efficient engine with smooth and reliable V12.. as a package there were no better car at that time until Ford spent millions to beat Ferrari..
Uhhh, Carroll Shelby and a few Cali cowboys beat the GTO straight up, without million$ of Ford dollars, with the Daytona Coupe. Yes Henry II went back for more but he was after LeMans not the GT championship. And he did that mostly because Enzo agreed to sell and then reneged.

The story I find most interesting is that after the Daytona Coupes accomplished their goal, nobody wanted them. They sat on a dock somewhere and almost got pushed into the ocean to get them out of the way. Now they belong to billionaires. Time is a funny thing.
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      05-13-2019, 05:08 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wdb View Post
Uhhh, Carroll Shelby and a few Cali cowboys beat the GTO straight up, without million$ of Ford dollars, with the Daytona Coupe. Yes Henry II went back for more but he was after LeMans not the GT championship. And he did that mostly because Enzo agreed to sell and then reneged.

The story I find most interesting is that after the Daytona Coupes accomplished their goal, nobody wanted them. They sat on a dock somewhere and almost got pushed into the ocean to get them out of the way. Now they belong to billionaires. Time is a funny thing.
i believe Ford was funding Daytona project also without overshadowing GT40 of course.. and yeah 5-10 cars from 50 years ago worth a looot now..
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