Help me solve 30FF / Reduced Power

[Thecastle]

I'm near my wits end with this car and ready to trade the X5M if we can't solve a problem that has been lingering since 2018. I've taken it to multiple independent and dealer mechanics, had a lot of parts replaced but no one it seems can figure out what is wrong.

I get 30FF constantly. Yes no other error codes are triggered at this point, but after some recent work most of the other errors have dropped away. (used to get a bank 2 error). The problem symptom is a reduced power mode triggered by a 30FF while just driving in the mountains up a grade or while towing our 5000lbs travel trailer. I can then pull over turn off the car, turn it back on, problem is "gone." Can happen in 4th, 5th and 6th gear while driving or towing. No misfires, no other indications its about to happen like loss of power, shaking and etc. Can't reproduce the problem on level ground even with multiple full throttle pulls. In fact its never happened at full throttle, its part throttle where its seems to show up most, and the engine has to be fully warmed/hot before it can randomly happen on a grade. That's why this has been so hard okay impossible to reproduce on demand as houston is flat, and it rarely happens when not towing, but does happen with the car by itself in the mountains.

I've replaced the following items / had these tests
Smoke Test
Vacuum Test
Turbo actuation test
MAP sensors
Aux Turbo pump replaced
Pneumatic Pressure Converters.
Diverter Valves
Filtered Air Ducts (done 2 weeks ago, on my 3rd) lol had this car long enough, replacing the same parts again...
All vacuum lines (done 2 weeks ago)
Spark Plugs
Probably a bunch of other parts that I'll remember when you ask.

At this point no one can find anything wrong with the car. Its passes all the ISTA tests, smoke, vacuum, and etc. So we've been throwing parts at it. I just had the vacuum lines all replaced and filtered air ducts done. I even tried a tune (BMS stage 1). None of these made any difference.

I've spend $1000s chasing this problem and it happens all the damn time. Except when I'm driving normally on level ground.

I'm thinking its possibly time for a new vehicle. In the span of 200 miles I can see it 5 times, while towing. Or on a long mountain grade when not towing, its really irritating to pull over all the time and turn the car off and on to "fix it". After owning a diesel 335D and an M, I think I'm permanently traumatized by the BMW chime going off in the car lol

[525DA_touring]

Turbolader ? Wastegate Problem ?

[robinasu]

I would triple check all the vacuum lines are routed neatly and not kinked or crushed by brackets, tight bends, etc, even a little bit. Since you had a bunch of work done to replace those that could be a possibility. I would then disconnect one line at a time where you can and check for vacuum etc. Sounds like if you want it done right you will have to do it yourself - probably a small detail. Also check the techs connected everything correctly. Maybe one of the non-replaced parts has a partially clogged nipple, etc.. stuff like that I would look for- assuming all the new parts are working as they should.

I don't know how the CCV system is setup for that engine, but I would double check all the hoses for that. The M57 engine has a CCV hose that cracks and caused intake air issues.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Have you checked or replaced the gas tank evap lines and valves? This is often overlooked as it is completely separate from the CCV system and the M uses two valves If memory serves, one on each side connected to the lower intake manifolds just below the throttle bodies. A leak here or bad valve would cause the low boost codes. After that I would check the condition of your waste gates, if you feel alot of slop then they are most likely getting cocked off to the side when closed and this too will cause a 30FF code. Final thing to check is your lower intakes, which is not easy without engine removal but removing the inner fender well will allow you partial access to look for cracks, missing/loose bolts, etc.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by robinasu

I would triple check all the vacuum lines are routed neatly and not kinked or crushed by brackets, tight bends, etc, even a little bit. Since you had a bunch of work done to replace those that could be a possibility. I would then disconnect one line at a time where you can and check for vacuum etc. Sounds like if you want it done right you will have to do it yourself - probably a small detail. Also check the techs connected everything correctly. Maybe one of the non-replaced parts has a partially clogged nipple, etc.. stuff like that I would look for- assuming all the new parts are working as they should.

I don't know how the CCV system is setup for that engine, but I would double check all the hoses for that. The M57 engine has a CCV hose that cracks and caused intake air issues.

Thank you. I tend not to think its a problem with the vacuum system. Replacing the vacuum lines was just a guess on our part since we couldn't find anything else wrong with the car. I had the BMW dealership replace all vacuum lines including the exhaust flaps lines, the t's and connectors I saw looked new. The car before the vacuum line change passed all vacuum actuation tests and held a vacuum no problem. The car had no change after replacing the vacuum lines. It runs exactly as before, fine, with fairly constant reduced power mode warnings, with 30FF codes. Key thing maybe that it happens when the engine is hot, so we thought the lines might be collapsing. But that doesn't seem to to be the case.

I had two different shops and mechanics look at the vacuum system and couldn't find any problems with it. Again this problem has been with me since 2018. But at least the car has bran new vacuum lines.

The filtered air ducts were replaced again at the same time, as they had cracked and were leaking oil causing smoke to come out of the grill. Replaced and end of smoking.

We didn't think it was a vacuum problem and replacing the entire system minus pump and a few connectors possibly with OEM parts didn't help. We had also replaced the pneumatic pressure converters as they sometimes go bad as well.

I guess we could go through the system again, but my gut tells me this is not where the problem is at. I suspect a bad turbo or something else.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Have you checked or replaced the gas tank evap lines and valves? This is often overlooked as it is completely separate from the CCV system and the M uses two valves If memory serves, one on each side connected to the lower intake manifolds just below the throttle bodies. A leak here or bad valve would cause the low boost codes. After that I would check the condition of your waste gates, if you feel alot of slop then they are most likely getting cocked off to the side when closed and this too will cause a 30FF code. Final thing to check is your lower intakes, which is not easy without engine removal but removing the inner fender well will allow you partial access to look for cracks, missing/loose bolts, etc.

I've had the DTML pump replaced. I'll have to look if the gat tank evap lines/valves have been replaced. I've had a few check engine lights in the past caused by these parts. Good suggestion.

both the indy and the dealer have run the waste gate actuation test and didn't find anything and played with the waste gate rods and didn't detect any slop (so they say). So they felt the turbos were okay to them. But that doesn't prove they aren't the problem. The car has 69K miles on it. I could go check it myself but its a bit of a job as I have a turbo blanket on it and need to remove a lot of parts to get at the turbo blanket. Right now I'm a little short on time with some big projects for my company.

Would the engine intakes show a problem with a smoke test? Which has been done probably at least 4x now, by multiple people.

My gut leans towards a small leak or a weak turbo(s) as my problem. Whats even stranger is running a tune made no difference. It was just an experiment to see if it would make the engine less sensitive to boost variations. BMS stage 1, was what I ran. Made no difference in the frequency of 30FF / Reduced power. Strangely no better or worse.

[frankenm]

Had a very similar issue for years with mine until I upgraded the turbos - SUV would just go into limp mode, quick on/off cycle back to normal - never stored or gave a code just fucking engine malfunctions

I upgraded to some TU turbos from an M5 and the problem never came back - the wastegates on the stock turbos were completely shot ... every single s63 from this generation engine is going to have this problem with the wastegates they will fail no question about it mine lasted about 100k miles only a matter of time

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

I've had the DTML pump replaced. I'll have to look if the gat tank evap lines/valves have been replaced. I've had a few check engine lights in the past caused by these parts. Good suggestion.

both the indy and the dealer have run the waste gate actuation test and didn't find anything and played with the waste gate rods and didn't detect any slop (so they say). So they felt the turbos were okay to them. But that doesn't prove they aren't the problem. The car has 69K miles on it. I could go check it myself but its a bit of a job as I have a turbo blanket on it and need to remove a lot of parts to get at the turbo blanket. Right now I'm a little short on time with some big projects for my company.

Would the engine intakes show a problem with a smoke test? Which has been done probably at least 4x now, by multiple people.

My gut leans towards a small leak or a weak turbo(s) as my problem. Whats even stranger is running a tune made no difference. It was just an experiment to see if it would make the engine less sensitive to boost variations. BMS stage 1, was what I ran. Made no difference in the frequency of 30FF / Reduced power. Strangely no better or worse.

Did you replace your vacuum pump yet? If not I would do that and take advantage of the one that is on sale at 60 dollars vs 450 just to eliminate another variable.

Also when they did the vacuum tests, did they test the muffler exhaust actuators? You could have a leaked back there and since on the M the wastegate actuators and muffler a actuators all share the same vacuum system, a leak anywhere would cause 30FF codes.

Smoke tests unfortunately dont help much for boost pressure issues like the 30FF code.

As FrankenM mentioned, wastegates highly probable too. A easy way to check for alignment (assuming you have downpipes) is to remove the secondary O2 sensors which are pretty easy to get too and use borescope to inspect the wastegate. Use a handheld vacuum pump and pull -12psi, wastegates should be drum tight and perfectly sealed.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Did you replace your vacuum pump yet? If not I would do that and take advantage of the one that is on sale at 60 dollars vs 450 just to eliminate another variable.

Also when they did the vacuum tests, did they test the muffler exhaust actuators? You could have a leaked back there and since on the M the wastegate actuators and muffler a actuators all share the same vacuum system, a leak anywhere would cause 30FF codes.

Smoke tests unfortunately dont help much for boost pressure issues like the 30FF code.

As FrankenM mentioned, wastegates highly probable too. A easy way to check for alignment (assuming you have downpipes) is to remove the secondary O2 sensors which are pretty easy to get too and use borescope to inspect the wastegate. Use a handheld vacuum pump and pull -12psi, wastegates should be drum tight and perfectly sealed.

On the x5m I found my stock ones closed at around -7 inHg

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by frankenm

Had a very similar issue for years with mine until I upgraded the turbos - SUV would just go into limp mode, quick on/off cycle back to normal - never stored or gave a code just fucking engine malfunctions

I upgraded to some TU turbos from an M5 and the problem never came back - the wastegates on the stock turbos were completely shot ... every single s63 from this generation engine is going to have this problem with the wastegates they will fail no question about it mine lasted about 100k miles only a matter of time

Thats kind of what I suspect on on my car, though my turbos MAY have been weak since around 55K miles (69K now). My service advisor/normal tech at the dealer both think its a bad/weak turbo (probably bad wastegate) but were trying to rule everything else out, that was less expensive. They actually say they haven't had a lot of turbo failures on the S63.

The problem I have is the car is probably worth about ~17K on trade. Plus a little more for its extended warranty that is transferable. I've already spent many thousands and many hours chasing this problem. New turbos installed are around a $5K proposition. Not sure I'm willing to dump another $5K into an 11 year old car worth 17K when the problem could easily be solved by moving on and applying the money to something newer. The reason we don't just trade is we like the car, and we own it out right with an extended warranty on it. The warranty won't cover turbo replacement unless we can prove the turbos have failed.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Did you replace your vacuum pump yet? If not I would do that and take advantage of the one that is on sale at 60 dollars vs 450 just to eliminate another variable.

Also when they did the vacuum tests, did they test the muffler exhaust actuators? You could have a leaked back there and since on the M the wastegate actuators and muffler a actuators all share the same vacuum system, a leak anywhere would cause 30FF codes.

Smoke tests unfortunately dont help much for boost pressure issues like the 30FF code.

As FrankenM mentioned, wastegates highly probable too. A easy way to check for alignment (assuming you have downpipes) is to remove the secondary O2 sensors which are pretty easy to get too and use borescope to inspect the wastegate. Use a handheld vacuum pump and pull -12psi, wastegates should be drum tight and perfectly sealed.

No, not replaced the vaccum pump yet. My Indy recommended not to as they so rarely fail. Yeah for $60 I could diy it. But wouldn't a failing vacuum pump show up during testing?

The Indy I had gone to had a system to pressure test the intake which he didn't use to put it under load to look for leaks. The car sat at his shop for nearly 3 weeks and he wasn't getting anything accomplished, and I was going on a trip so I pulled it back before he could try that. We sitting on the fence of just trading it..

Agree on the waste gates as being most likely or a boost leak at this point. Unfortunately the car is all stock, so it does have cats after the turbos. But I'm going to try and pursue this one.

[Thecastle]

So check for bad waste gates and pressure test the intake sound like the consensus.

Yes, P.S. they did test before / after vacuum line replacement that the exhaust switch over works normally and correctly. Its always worked for me.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

So check for bad waste gates and pressure test the intake sound like the consensus.

Yes, P.S. they did test before / after vacuum line replacement that the exhaust switch over works normally and correctly. Its always worked for me.

When that wastegate closes, you should be able to see with the borescope/Endoscope if the wastegate has play in it.

at these miles though, your wastegates are probably on their way out. The comment about your dealer telling you the turbos don't fail....that's now how turbos work lol. All turbos will age. We had an Audi A5 for example and its turbo failed (the wastegate failed) at 70K.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

When that wastegate closes, you should be able to see with the borescope/Endoscope if the wastegate has play in it.

at these miles though, your wastegates are probably on their way out. The comment about your dealer telling you the turbos don't fail....that's now how turbos work lol. All turbos will age. We had an Audi A5 for example and its turbo failed (the wastegate failed) at 70K.

Just a clarification, dealer didn't say that the S63 turbos don't fail, just compared to some other vehicles they deal with X5M turbo failures are not that common..

Yeah the car is at 70K. I tried to make an appointment at the dealer. to take alook at the waste gates, I requested a master tech.

Just triggered the Limp mode again today while driving on the frontage road. Back to 30FF (boost pressure control, boost pressure too low) and 310B (boost pressure control 2, plausibility). So even after vacuum hoses and filtered air ducts no difference. I am still running the BMS stage 1, to see if it would make the problem less common, dosen't seem to have an impact, except at full throttle.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

Just a clarification, dealer didn't say that the S63 turbos don't fail, just compared to some other vehicles they deal with X5M turbo failures are not that common..

Yeah the car is at 70K. I tried to make an appointment at the dealer. to take alook at the waste gates, I requested a master tech.

Just triggered the Limp mode again today while driving on the frontage road. Back to 30FF (boost pressure control, boost pressure too low) and 310B (boost pressure control 2, plausibility). So even after vacuum hoses and filtered air ducts no difference. I am still running the BMS stage 1, to see if it would make the problem less common, dosen't seem to have an impact, except at full throttle.

Have you tried testing with BMS Stage 1 removed? (Sorry if you've already stated this).

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Have you tried testing with BMS Stage 1 removed? (Sorry if you've already stated this).

Yes, I had added the BMS stage 1 about 2 weeks ago to see if it would reduce the number of 30FF errors. It didn't. So I had them before the install and after the install. I plan to remove it before I take it in and probably sell the BMS (it was a shot in the dark). The BMS didn't cause the issue or change it as far as I can tell.

We towed our trailer for 700 miles without the BMS after the vacuum line replacement and got the reduced power mode several times a week ago. So we added the BMS and saw the same thing. No change. We've also started seeing it without the trailer on long grades.

[Bengineer330]

Have you tried Data logging boost pressures? If the wastegates are suspect I would assume it would show up on a trend as not producing the same boost as the other bank. Then that might help in an argument with the extended warranty to replace or remedy. You could say to them “some random person on the internet gave me this software and it says my turbos are bad.” Lol they’d HAVE to believe you…


Anyways, Test-O is a good free logger that I use. You’ll need a USB-OBD2 cable but that’s it.

[Thecastle]

I’ll give it a shot or torque.

Last time I logged anything was during my vw days using vag-com. Carly is only good for real time displays. Also the error 30ff codes give a boost pressure reading at time of error Of 170kpa which is 24.5 psi abouts. But I don’t know if that reading needs to subtract atmospheric pressure or it is a true differential pressure. 22 would be high as an x5m should only see about 17 +/- stock.

I have an elm, and Carly, as well as one of those obd Ii to USB adapters for xhp

[slovakE70]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

I’ll give it a shot or torque.

Last time I logged anything was during my vw days using vag-com. Carly is only good for real time displays. Also the error 30ff codes give a boost pressure reading at time of error Of 170kpa which is 24.5 psi abouts. But I don’t know if that reading needs to subtract atmospheric pressure or it is a true differential pressure. 22 would be high as an x5m should only see about 17 +/- stock.

I have an elm, and Carly, as well as one of those obd Ii to USB adapters for xhp

On my N63 I'm using Bimmerlink app on phone with Bluetooth ODB adapter to check lot of stuff. You can check boost pressures there real time on display and see if there's difference between banks. You can log there also. Another good thing is that you can clear fault codes while you driving, no need to pull over to turn off and on.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

I’ll give it a shot or torque.

Last time I logged anything was during my vw days using vag-com. Carly is only good for real time displays. Also the error 30ff codes give a boost pressure reading at time of error Of 170kpa which is 24.5 psi abouts. But I don’t know if that reading needs to subtract atmospheric pressure or it is a true differential pressure. 22 would be high as an x5m should only see about 17 +/- stock.

I have an elm, and Carly, as well as one of those obd Ii to USB adapters for xhp

Bimmergeeks app called protool logs both banks.

[525DA_touring]

I have the Problem only on Dymo

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by slovakE70

On my N63 I'm using Bimmerlink app on phone with Bluetooth ODB adapter to check lot of stuff. You can check boost pressures there real time on display and see if there's difference between banks. You can log there also. Another good thing is that you can clear fault codes while you driving, no need to pull over to turn off and on.

That would be a big improvement, clearing the fault while driving without having to shut down and tun it back on.

Looks like a pretty cool app.

My gut tells me its either a vacuum problem or a waste gate issue. I'm going to try this app out to see if it can log each bank with the bms stage 1 removed. Which does add a ton of power when its working.