N63 Rebuild -

JohnelP · 09-20-2021, 12:54 AM

Yesterday I practically finished taking the engine apart. Why? Because I found copper like non-magnetic slivers in the oil filter. Took the oil pan off, and, extra bonus, found plastic debris from the timing chain guides. Given the upper oil pan gasket was leaking, i thought it is the time to take the engine out and see if I can fix it.

The problematic guides were the passenger side upper guide between the vanos phasors, and the smaller timing guide rail (not the one with the tensioner). They did not break, but the side part of plastic cushion of the rail began to disintegrate.

I continued the teardown to look for the metal scoring that generated the slivers. I was suspecting the rod bearings or the main bearings that could have copper, as everything else in the block is aluminum. And steel. I was a bit afraid a spun bearing is cooking, so, I removed the rod bearings, and I removed the crankshaft too to investigate the main bearings. Rod bearings have some wear on them, but no sliver type damage. Three have "spot"wear, but not disastrous. Main bearings were in good condition too. They are most likely from some aluminum alloy, as they are bright silver and do not contain any copper. So I am still puzzled. ....
Could not ind any spot where crank was scoring anything...

Continued to do some measurements. Got a cylinder dial gauge, and did measurements on the cyl bores. The top of the cylinder is severely out of round. The North-Sud direction is wider with 0.0015 " (15 thousands of an inch) = 0.038mm compared to East-West. That is three times the allowed 0.01 mm allowed bt manual.
Middle and bottom of the cylinder were within specs, and only 0.0005" out of round and same 0.0005" for taper
All the 4 cylinders on the passenger bank had exactly same measurement patterns. No exception. All cylinders are 3x allowed limit out of round on the top part of the cylinders.

I think that kind o explains why the car continued to consume oil (about a quart every 500 miles) even after the dealer did the valve stem seals work 10k miles ago... Did not do a leak down test, because I was not expecting this..

I was thinking to look for a machine shop to bore .0015" and restore the bores in standard sizes, without getting to oversized class. Have not searched any machine shop, but i understood there are not many that could bore hyper eutectic Alusil blocks. And even if I can find one, I would need to get new rings sets, assuming i can still keep the pistons. Given a piston ring set is 100$, i will spend 800$ only on rings. Adding the bearings, head gaskets, all bolts I am getting to the point where BMW remanufactured gets a better deal.

If I go with remanufactured, will the dealer be honest enough to pay me back the core charge? They say they pay the core charge only if the engine I send is rebuildable. Don't feel very comfortable, given they can find any gimmick to say your engine is not rebuildable. Plus, I need it delivered to residential address, and beyond the 1k $ shipping charge, they add that fee on top.

TwinSnailz · 09-20-2021, 11:36 AM

The bearing looks normal and great by the way. Im not sure of the mileage but I wouldn’t worry about the slight out of round. If the cylinder bores are scratch-free, I’d re-ring it and done. Your oil consumption is most likely for valve seals.
Ive had fine dust metals in these n63/s63 and for the life if me I couldn’t find whatvwas generating them. Its at every oil change.

JohnelP · 09-20-2021, 03:09 PM

Hi,

Car has 130k miles and it is from 2011. Previous owner had it fairly OK maintained.

Talked to few BMW dealers from all regions, and it seems - according to them - there are no remanufactured engines currently available in US. There are back orders on them; lead time is 4 to 6 weeks... and they may start getting few starting end of October with few per region. So, chances to get one soon are zero for me. Needless to say, shipping costs are not what they list on internet. Internet shows best case. I am looking at minimum 600$ to get the engine (most likely 750$ because it residential delivery, not a shop), and another min 600$ to ship the old core return. Local dealers here in Dallas TX think it is open season to ask what they want... even if MSRP is below 4k, they want 5.5k with local pick -up. Simply just because they feel like that.

About the out-of-round, the internet experts say an out of round mean poorer seal, as the steel ring will not follow the oval shape very well. Of course, oil film will help offset to a certain extent, but a current 0.04mm out of round when only 0.01 mm is allowed will take a small toll on performance.

Two cylinders have some light scratches. You can see them, you can feel the "abrasion", but are not deep enough to have the nail test throw the engine. Except one cylinder has a 1cm deeper scratch on top that nail can "catch it"

According to the specs, i have only 0.02 mm to the 89.00 mm bore diameter that i can bore to maintain "standard" gauge, without the need to bore to +.250 (first repair gauge). I have already doubled that - 0.04mm- ... so any re-boring needs to go to +.250. Means new pistons, and new rings with the larger dimensions. So, a remanufactured is a choice.

Not sure I am willing to spend 1k+ $ on BMW original rod and main bearings knowing engine will need to be replaced soon anyway.
I would go with King Bearings as they are way cheaper, and I hope they can buy time for me until I can get a remanufactured engine.

My only concern with king bearings is this case:

min 6:25

He had the new king bearing failure in 1k miles. Hard to say what he did wrong, but that was surprise. Maybe the king bearing dimensions may not be exactly the same as the originals. Tried to understand king bearing reviews, but it is hard to separate valid legit review from a technical person from a "ask your mother to review"....
So, I may be rude enough to put the old bearings back in. At least I know they still have some life in them...
Or you can make a good case for King bearings from own experience

Sophisticated Redneck · 09-20-2021, 07:16 PM

I would reach out to some of the various engine rebuilders that work on the n63/s63 platform and ask what their opinion of King bearing is on these engines.

TwinSnailz · 09-20-2021, 07:37 PM

I had use king main bearing and oem rod to help with my rebuild budget.
King mains were the only one with oem material. I was only able to find 2 aftermarket bearing company which were king and acl. Both manufacturers only had tri-metal rod bearings which I don’t intend on replacing these things anytime soon. Oem bi-metal is the only way for long term.

JohnelP · 09-22-2021, 01:13 AM

Did some research, and i found the correct way to ensure close to a good round when boring/honing + also measuring the correct value for the bore dimensions is to have a torque plate installed and torqued to cyl head bolts. Idea is to torque so it mimics real life when heads are installed and torqued.

That gave me a hope, and felt a bit better knowing I was illiterate and the engine might be right.

Since torque plates are so common that are sold in the candy aisle of Kroger and cost a penny, I took one piston out, installed one cyl head, torque the old head bolts to spec and did again the out of round measurement through the bottom of the cylinder.

Now the measurements are even worse close to the top near the head gasket. Now the out of round is closer to 0.002" from 0.0015" previously; measured about half a inch lower from head gasket.

Did tens of measurements hoping a miracle, but the dial bore gauge notoriously insisted to give me bad news.

So, before throwing in the towel I will talk to some machine shops, and see what they say, and see what else they can advise....

----------------------------------------------------.
On a different topic, the main bearings seem to have the original surface bit rough. Like a extra fine nail file. Most likely for better oil retention. Main bearings have portions where that rough surface got polished. Since I tend to fade away from the idea of kings in bearings and lean to offer the old OEM pawns the chance to continue their work, i was thinking to get a 2000 grit sandpaper and lightly do a 45degree checkered cross trace.

Rod shells seem to be polished, without any roughness.

Would that be OK? Or do i destroy more?

JohnelP · 09-23-2021, 04:51 PM

please tell me I am doing something wrong

This is with cyl head installed - as i do not have a torque plate -

This is the other bank, without head

The dial bore gauge was set to 3.5 inch setting.
I know i may state the obvious, but the higher the reading value , the smaller the distance measured i know it may sound counter-intuitive. But it does not matter the actual value, but more is the difference between the measurements

Sophisticated Redneck · 09-24-2021, 05:10 PM

I would just do a leak down test. If the cylinders are truly that out of round then the leak down test is going to be horrible. But if the leakdown is good, then your oil control is going to be too.

I did a leakdown test on mine at 138k, everything was in 3 to 8 percent. Was burning oil like crazy, about quart every 700 miles, made up custom catch cans and increased crank case vacuum to -10psi helped, now burned a quart every 1300-1500 miles. Eventually did valve stem seals, now at 172k miles and burns half a quart every 5000 miles and engine Is tuned
to 550hp and gets driven hard. I would bet all of your oil burning is related to the valve stem seals and not the cylinders/rings.

JohnelP · 10-03-2021, 07:00 PM

decided to keep old piston rings, as no choice to have the cylinders honed.

Top and second piston rings I see they have an orientation - they have the "GOE" letters engraved - most likely from goetze, but the oil scraper ring i cannot find any mark on it, and checked also with a magnifier, and there is nothing.

The oil scraper looks different than the traditional non-directional three piece combo. the scraper ring has still built-in two sleeves - up and down on exterior, and interior holds a coiled metal ring, and has grooves that were fully clogged by debris anyway.

So, are the scraper rings on N63 directional or not? What is mark to indicate the up direction?

Cwintx5 · 10-14-2021, 09:15 AM

Man. .03mm is nothing on that size bore, I would put the pistons back in with new rings, fit new bearings to the rods and mains and look elsewhere for oil burning, have you thought that it might be turbo oil seals or like other poster said the crankcase pressure and catch can?

JohnelP · 10-27-2021, 12:06 AM

@Cwintx5 - I gave up pouring new parts in it. Changing now the "must" ones. I took the pistons + rings out and cleaned them. And put them back in. Oil scraper little bores were completely clogged, took forever to clean, but anyway.
However, I put both main and rod bearing dealer parts. Especially mains were a combination of yellow and green, so I had to go bmw original.

Now I am doing the camshaft adjusters.
According to BMW Tis. I need to do this: - Info taken from TIS directly:

Important!
When the engine is shut down, the intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters are normally locked in their initial position.

The situation may arise in some individual cases where this initial position is not reached and the camshaft can continue to be rotated in the adjustment range of the camshaft adjuster.

In order to avoid incorrect timing adjustment, it is essential to check the locking of the camshaft adjuster and if necessary perform locking by rotating the camshafts.
Checking locking of intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters in initial setting:

Gripping hexagon head (2) of camshafts with an open-end spanner (1), carefully try to rotate camshafts against direction of rotation.

The intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters are locked in the initial setting when the camshafts are non-positively connected to the adjusters.

Important!
If the intake or exhaust camshaft adjusters of the camshafts ”cannot” be locked as described, the adjuster is faulty and must be replaced.

I do not understand the instructions.
What do they mean with " when the camshafts are non-positively connected to the adjusters."?

What locking by rotating camshaft? Adjusters are pressed on the camshaft by the pressure of the central bolt, , there is no dowel, no pin, nothing. At re-assembly, the central bolt is not tightened, and the adjuster spins freely on the cam profile.

Unless, they mean the operation should be done before releasing any timing component: the central bolt is still tight, and tensioner is still on. In that case it should not be possible to rotate the camshaft considering the adjusters/phasors cannot move as held by the chain. But that means it needs to be done before touching any timing component, before disassembly.
In my case, in the re-assembly phase, should i tighten the phasors with the old bolts to see if there is any camshaft movement?
Something is not right, it should not be that complicated.

However Martin Christensen does not do this in his video. Either he missed it, or it is irrelevant; don't know

How did you do it?

--------------------------------------------------------------.
Need to be a little careful here, as I messed up when I took the chains out. I had the cams locked when I rotated the crank counterclock >90 to compress the tensioners, and I thought I hit the valves with the pistons. the chain got stuck on the second tensioner, so i could not rotate more to compress the second one. Sad memories.... So i need now to make sure I get all details right

Sophisticated Redneck · 10-27-2021, 02:16 AM

Only way I see the adjusters not being in the locked position is if they are bad (unless you reverse rotated the engine before releasing them from the cam)as when you rotate the engine by hand to get everything lined up, they are naturally going to be pushed back to the locked position. Just don't try to rotate the engine in reverse, even a few mm if you go to far when locking in th crank with the TDC tool, rotating in reverse even just slightly can bring the adjusters out of locked position so if you go to far, rotate the engine a full combustion cycle again until it's perfectly aligned.

When everything is bolted back up and torqued, rotate engine two full combustion cycles and check cam timing again. If your adjusters we're not locked, the timing will be off, which isn't a biggie, just take off the timing chain tensioners and replace the cam bolts and retorque. Don't try to reuse the cam bolts, they are one time use only due to the stretch and make sure to use copper anti-seize under the bolt washer only.

JohnelP · 11-13-2021, 01:57 AM

I thought I may just get away with just cleaning the valves with carburator cleaner without removing them and lap them. Big mistake. Mistake cost two new head gaskets, new head bolts, new phasor bolts o-rings, etc. Expensive mistake....

Dealer had the valve seals done by the CPO two years ago and bit < 15k miles, so I thought I am safe. Bumped in my cyl leak tester looking for something else, and remembered Sophisticated Redneck mentioned to do a cyl leak test. So I did.

I was almost ready to put the engine back in the car. Cyl heads are out again and took the valves out. Pain to take the engine apart again; though this time took only a day dismantle and half a day extra for the valve springs-> until i figured out the tricks for the keepers with the valve compressor tool.

I see there are many opinions on valve clean/lap.

I see there are many grits for the grind paste. Can't find anything in bmw's newtis on this; maybe I did not search right... Given I am not in mood to try and fail, need to see if there is a guaranteed right way.

So, can i use sandpaper to clean the valves of carbon deposits? If yes, what grit? Other way? Danger of scratching?

On the lapping, what metal grinding paste grit should I use? If I decide to use the drill instead of manual suction cup tool, what speed should I use on the drill? and how hard should I push?

Next, how to check the valves seal properly? I think the water test may be too weak, and I would like to make sure the valves seal before throwing hundreds$ on new head gaskets.. Any tricks to check the seal before fitting the cyl head back in place?

Opinions welcomed

Sophisticated Redneck · 11-13-2021, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnelP

I thought I may just get away with just cleaning the valves with carburator cleaner without removing them and lap them. Big mistake. Mistake cost two new head gaskets, new head bolts, new phasor bolts o-rings, etc. Expensive mistake....

Dealer had the valve seals done by the CPO two years ago and bit < 15k miles, so I thought I am safe. Bumped in my cyl leak tester looking for something else, and remembered Sophisticated Redneck mentioned to do a cyl leak test. So I did.

I was almost ready to put the engine back in the car. Cyl heads are out again and took the valves out. Pain to take the engine apart again; though this time took only a day dismantle and half a day extra for the valve springs-> until i figured out the tricks for the keepers with the valve compressor tool.

I see there are many opinions on valve clean/lap.

I see there are many grits for the grind paste. Can't find anything in bmw's newtis on this; maybe I did not search right... Given I am not in mood to try and fail, need to see if there is a guaranteed right way.

So, can i use sandpaper to clean the valves of carbon deposits? If yes, what grit? Other way? Danger of scratching?

On the lapping, what metal grinding paste grit should I use? If I decide to use the drill instead of manual suction cup tool, what speed should I use on the drill? and how hard should I push?

Next, how to check the valves seal properly? I think the water test may be too weak, and I would like to make sure the valves seal before throwing hundreds$ on new head gaskets.. Any tricks to check the seal before fitting the cyl head back in place?

Opinions welcomed

I lapped mine as they were severely pitted. I used just a fine compound from an auto parts store as coarse was cutting to many lines and the goal is to remove as little material as possible. Doing it by hand will make you want to shoot yourself. I took th suction cup off the hand lapper, used hot glue to stick it to the valve, then attached it to a flex shaft then to a Milwaukee drill driver. Flex shaft is key as it's impossible to stay centered by hand with a drill but the flex shaft allows the valves to stay centered in their guides. As for carbon on valves, chuck it up in a drill and spin against exacto knife, only way to get off the fine deposits. I'll dig up some pics in a bit

Sophisticated Redneck · 11-13-2021, 05:02 AM

Below are some pics of everything I used. Highly recommend you don't use a drill but instead use the Milwaukee driver l used in the attached pics, its much lighter then a drill and allows you much greater control and feel which is critical when lapping the valves. Flex shaft is from one of those 90 degree drill add-ons. My intake valves were ok but the exhaust were severely pitted from all of the excessive oil burning due to the valve stem seals leaking.

Dont use the coarse from the kit, just use the fine grade. Takes about 3-5 min on each valve to clean them up if memory serves. As for testing, I really didnt have a way until the heads were installed so just did the best I could, I stopped lapping as soon as most of the pitting was gone. Did a leak down test after installing the heads back on and all were within 5-7 percent, no leaks past valves, only past the rings, which at the time the engine was at 138k so to be expected. Now at 173K and tuned well over 500hp and still knocking out low 12 second 1/4 miles so the lapping did its thing..

I also polished up the intake ports, combustion chambers, and pistons as you can see in the pics. If you care to do the same Ill post all the details and what I learned in another post.

Attacking Mid · 11-13-2021, 10:02 AM

A wire wheel on a bench grinder works great to clean carbon off valves. I imagine just unclogging those oil rings and piston passage may reduce your oil consumption significantly. Your failed valve stem seals would have overwhelmed the oil rings resulting in clogging and the inability the pass oil back under the pistons.

I didn't see how long it had been since the VS seals were replaced, but I'd be tempted to renew them again given the problems people have with them.

AM.

JohnelP · 11-13-2021, 12:23 PM

Thanks a lot!

@Attacking Mid - Valve seals were done by BMW in April 2019 and about 15k miles ago part of the CCP. They still look new. I was hoping BMW would take care of details a bit better. Intake ports were in horrible state, as if they have been filled with tar. Same the intake manifold and back of the valves. Hidden in deep carbon+oil deposits. Exhaust valve+ ports were in better shape. Took me an eternity to clean. Especially the top of pistons, grooves , piston rings + the valves intake ports. In fact 75% of the time on this rebuild was cleaning...
Took it with soft baby steps, as I was afraid of scratches and => machining the whole thing.
I would not go with bench grinder, but how about a brass wire brush?
80 grit sandpaper is too dangerous? Don't know where is the line between a scratch that is OK from one that will trigger a leak; looking at tight tolerances, i do not trust my visual inspection

@SophisticatedRedneck - Just saw a video where he was using a rubber hose to hook the electric driver with the tip of the valve stem. What I could not figure is how fast was spinning the drill, how much pressure did he apply and for how long. I see the tap thing while lapping is important. I think the consensus is to lap until the grinding paste makes the "uniform grey band on the lip of the valve and the valve seat"

Coming to valve seats. Not sure if N63 has it or not, but i knew valve seats are a different material coating. That's why i was afraid to go hard on cleaning. Any tips on cleaning the valve seat before starting the lapping process?

Valve seat cleaning - I assume a wire brush is a no go with aluminum. ScotchBrite? wirewool?

==========================
Glad you shared the cyl leak tester for this N63. One cylinder that had lower valve leaks was getting closer to 5% leak. However my AudiA4 at 200k miles with the old 1.8T was reading 2% leak on cyl 1 and 4, and 4% on cyl 2 and 3. But i could tell clearly the noise of leak past the rings in the crankcase was clearly louder in the N63 than the Audi. Not sure, too early to judge. I 'll see how it goes

Attacking Mid · 11-13-2021, 12:36 PM

I would also check around for a good machine shop in your area who does lots of engine work just to see what they would charge to grind the valves and re-cut the seats. The trouble with simply lapping them in is that your seats will be much wider than originally spec'd due to wear. A too-wide valve seat is vulnerable to carbon build-up and just general poor sealing.

If they only have to do the grinding and cutting with you doing the disassembly/reassembly, it may not be as expensive as you fear. You would end up with a longer lasting and better performing top end.

I just saw you mentioned a coating on the valve seats. If that's the case, then re-cutting is likely not possible. I'm speaking from general engine experience and not from personal BMW engine building, so I may be ignorant of some aspects.

AM.

Sophisticated Redneck · 11-13-2021, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnelP

Thanks a lot!

@Attacking Mid - Valve seals were done by BMW in April 2019 and about 15k miles ago part of the CCP. They still look new. I was hoping BMW would take care of details a bit better. Intake ports were in horrible state, as if they have been filled with tar. Same the intake manifold and back of the valves. Hidden in deep carbon+oil deposits. Exhaust valve+ ports were in better shape. Took me an eternity to clean. Especially the top of pistons, grooves , piston rings + the valves intake ports. In fact 75% of the time on this rebuild was cleaning...
Took it with soft baby steps, as I was afraid of scratches and => machining the whole thing.
I would not go with bench grinder, but how about a brass wire brush?
80 grit sandpaper is too dangerous? Don't know where is the line between a scratch that is OK from one that will trigger a leak; looking at tight tolerances, i do not trust my visual inspection

@SophisticatedRedneck - Just saw a video where he was using a rubber hose to hook the electric driver with the tip of the valve stem. What I could not figure is how fast was spinning the drill, how much pressure did he apply and for how long. I see the tap thing while lapping is important. I think the consensus is to lap until the grinding paste makes the "uniform grey band on the lip of the valve and the valve seat"

Coming to valve seats. Not sure if N63 has it or not, but i knew valve seats are a different material coating. That's why i was afraid to go hard on cleaning. Any tips on cleaning the valve seat before starting the lapping process?

Valve seat cleaning - I assume a wire brush is a no go with aluminum. ScotchBrite? wirewool?

==========================
Glad you shared the cyl leak tester for this N63. One cylinder that had lower valve leaks was getting closer to 5% leak. However my AudiA4 at 200k miles with the old 1.8T was reading 2% leak on cyl 1 and 4, and 4% on cyl 2 and 3. But i could tell clearly the noise of leak past the rings in the crankcase was clearly louder in the N63 than the Audi. Not sure, too early to judge. I 'll see how it goes

As the other member mentioned, taking them in and having them machined is best, but save that if you are stubborn like me and want to do it yourself take my advice from someone who has done all the work already - As you can see in my before pics, I know all about what a nightmare it was to clean and I tested so many products trying to find the best solution. In the end, chucking the valves up in a drill and using an exacto knife to lathe off the deposits is the only way to get everything off. It gives you a level of control you can not get with anything else. You can run the blade with control right up to the the valves contact surfaces for both the seat and steam seals, something you cant do with anything else. I tried wire wheels and everything else and nothing could touch the final deposits on these valves, I have never seen anything like it in my life.

You can then polish with a strip of 1000 grit abrasive cloth if you like, again steering clear of the contact faces and surfaces

As for the valve seats, you say they need to be cleaned? Can you take pictures of them?

Rubber hose will not give you control and feel enough needed to do this proper. Do exactly as I listed if you are going to tackle this yourself, get the flexable shaft and Milwaukee driver, after cleaning everything meticulously, use hot glue to attach the rubber cup to the valves, oil the valve stem shaft and apply a light coating of the fine grit compound on the valves contact face, run the driver at speed setting 1 or 2 in 30 second bursts, alternating forward and reverse. Apply only very light force, perhaps 1 to 2 pounds only, letting the weight of the tool do most of the force. lift up every 30 seconds approx 1/8" inch to allow more lapping compound to work its way in, Be absolutely paranoid about checking the stems to make sure to lapping compound finds its way down the valve and on to the stems, which would ruin your guides. When first starting out, pull valve every minute or so and clean off lapping compound and check valve surface, the goal here is to remove the pitting with as little material as possible. The wider you make the contact patch, the less the valve will seal.

When you add up all the costs of tools and time, taking it to a machine shop might be a better option, but again if you are stubborn like me and want to do it all yourself, get all of the tools and do the same as I did.

JohnelP · 11-13-2021, 04:36 PM

Thanks! My intake valves looked worse than yours in the picture.

You are correct, the "final deposits" are painful

I am in the process of cleaning the valves with wire brush. Brass one was way too soft. Steel one was doing better. Deposits were hard as a rock, so not even the steel wire brush could do something until I soaked the valves in sea foam for 1 h.

Checked the sandpaper grip and 80 is too harsh, even worse than wire brush.

So for the valves, being steel, i will get harder and will get them cleaned someway.

Now, the valve seats are coated with carbon deposits hard as a rock too. I'll get a picture of them.
Given the seats are in aluminum block, what can i use to make sure i do not disturb the valve seat profile?

Some plastic brush that be fit to a drill?

Sophisticated Redneck · 11-13-2021, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnelP

Thanks! My intake valves looked worse than yours in the picture.

You are correct, the "final deposits" are painful

I am in the process of cleaning the valves with wire brush. Brass one was way too soft. Steel one was doing better. Deposits were hard as a rock, so not even the steel wire brush could do something until I soaked the valves in sea foam for 1 h.

Checked the sandpaper grip and 80 is too harsh, even worse than wire brush.

So for the valves, being steel, i will get harder and will get them cleaned someway.

Now, the valve seats are coated with carbon deposits hard as a rock too. I'll get a picture of them.
Given the seats are in aluminum block, what can i use to make sure i do not disturb the valve seat profile?

Some plastic brush that be fit to a drill?

So again, just use a exacto knife with the valve chucked up in a drill, you can ruin your valve with sandpaper and wire brushes. It makes short work of each valve, look at how clean mine were after doing this then following up with a 1000 grit abrasive cloth.

Also, I can see in the pics you are marring and doing damage to your combustion chambers. Please tape off your entire head with multiple layers, then cut out the combustion chambers as I did in the pics above. Bolt on your valve covers and remove your injectors. Use silicon/rubber plug kit off amazon to plug injector and spark plug holes. Tape off all open ports. This not only protects your coolant and oil passages from debris but you have to be extremely careful on the heads where the headgasket, especially the cylinder metal rings seal. One deep scratch here and your head is toast.

Follow the links below, the abrasive wheels are what I used to clean and polish the combustion chambers and intake ports. I started with lowest grit and worked my way up. You will go through dozens but work incredible. Get a dremel with extension wand attachment and go to town. Leave the valves in when you clean. Let the lapping take care of the deposits on the seats. Polish out the grooves and cut marks in your combustion chambers which is super easy with the abrasive wheels I listed below. I Also used these on the pistons. They create a ton of debris however so taping off all open ports an holes in critical (as well as wearing a N95 mask if you like your lungs). If you use the abrasive wheels/dremel to clean your ports, make sure to wrap dremel collet in electrical tape and coat seats with hot glue, one good hit from a unprotected dremel collet against your valve seats will ruin them.

https://www.amazon.com/AUSTOR-Pieces.../dp/B07NKRD2S4

JohnelP · 11-17-2021, 11:45 PM

Hi,

Status report to make sure i do not mess up.
Cleaned the valves. On the exhaust ones, indeed the x-acto blade and the drill is the only way to clean exhaust valves. Started light with hand 00 scotch brite, then the abrasive wheels on drill practically wasting my time, to end up with the x-acto blade. Made sure I did not touch the seating surface and the stem.
Intake valves were easier to clean, did not need the blade. Abrasive pads were OK, with the same note I made sure the seating surface was not touched.

Valve seats were cleaned with the abrasive wheels, and further away from the seat surface with a dremel wire wheel brush with lowest speed dremel could go and easiest touch.

=========================.
Now the valve lapping. Decided to do it by hand, as seen some advices against using drill.
The seating surface of the valves has many small craters / small dense pits. Valve seat also, though those are visible with a magnifying glass.
So far I am doing one exhaust valve and:
The grinding compound attaches strongly to the seating surface of the valve. It forms a layer that gets grey, dull and uniform over the steel that prevents any further grinding of the steel. I can see the uniform grey look people (i think?) refer to, but I am not sure that is the grey surface i am targeting. Tring to clean the compound with a cloth or a brush was impossible. Had to go pretty hard to remove the compound from the seat surface. ValveSeat surface was still pitted.

The valve seats on cyl head were a bit more cooperative.

So, i have not seen in any video/manual people having hard time to remove the grinding compound from the seat surface. One cloth wipe seems to do the trick for them.
What am I doing wrong?
If i continue like this, the valve seat will wear beyond specs and the valve contact surface is barely grinding.

I am assuming, in between grinding steps, the contact surfaces must be completely free of old compound, right?

Using the permatex valve grinding compound found on every shop. Same thing that everyone uses.

09-20-2021, 12:54 AM	#1
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	N63 Rebuild - - Opinions Welcomed Yesterday I practically finished taking the engine apart. Why? Because I found copper like non-magnetic slivers in the oil filter. Took the oil pan off, and, extra bonus, found plastic debris from the timing chain guides. Given the upper oil pan gasket was leaking, i thought it is the time to take the engine out and see if I can fix it. The problematic guides were the passenger side upper guide between the vanos phasors, and the smaller timing guide rail (not the one with the tensioner). They did not break, but the side part of plastic cushion of the rail began to disintegrate. I continued the teardown to look for the metal scoring that generated the slivers. I was suspecting the rod bearings or the main bearings that could have copper, as everything else in the block is aluminum. And steel. I was a bit afraid a spun bearing is cooking, so, I removed the rod bearings, and I removed the crankshaft too to investigate the main bearings. Rod bearings have some wear on them, but no sliver type damage. Three have "spot"wear, but not disastrous. Main bearings were in good condition too. They are most likely from some aluminum alloy, as they are bright silver and do not contain any copper. So I am still puzzled. .... Could not ind any spot where crank was scoring anything... Continued to do some measurements. Got a cylinder dial gauge, and did measurements on the cyl bores. The top of the cylinder is severely out of round. The North-Sud direction is wider with 0.0015 " (15 thousands of an inch) = 0.038mm compared to East-West. That is three times the allowed 0.01 mm allowed bt manual. Middle and bottom of the cylinder were within specs, and only 0.0005" out of round and same 0.0005" for taper All the 4 cylinders on the passenger bank had exactly same measurement patterns. No exception. All cylinders are 3x allowed limit out of round on the top part of the cylinders. I think that kind o explains why the car continued to consume oil (about a quart every 500 miles) even after the dealer did the valve stem seals work 10k miles ago... Did not do a leak down test, because I was not expecting this.. I was thinking to look for a machine shop to bore .0015" and restore the bores in standard sizes, without getting to oversized class. Have not searched any machine shop, but i understood there are not many that could bore hyper eutectic Alusil blocks. And even if I can find one, I would need to get new rings sets, assuming i can still keep the pistons. Given a piston ring set is 100$, i will spend 800$ only on rings. Adding the bearings, head gaskets, all bolts I am getting to the point where BMW remanufactured gets a better deal. If I go with remanufactured, will the dealer be honest enough to pay me back the core charge? They say they pay the core charge only if the engine I send is rebuildable. Don't feel very comfortable, given they can find any gimmick to say your engine is not rebuildable. Plus, I need it delivered to residential address, and beyond the 1k $ shipping charge, they add that fee on top. Attached Images
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09-20-2021, 11:36 AM	#2
TwinSnailz First Lieutenant 75 Rep 357 Posts Drives: 2011 X5//M Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: IL iTrader: (0)	The bearing looks normal and great by the way. Im not sure of the mileage but I wouldn’t worry about the slight out of round. If the cylinder bores are scratch-free, I’d re-ring it and done. Your oil consumption is most likely for valve seals. Ive had fine dust metals in these n63/s63 and for the life if me I couldn’t find whatvwas generating them. Its at every oil change.
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09-20-2021, 03:09 PM	#3
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Car has 130k miles. Cannot get remanufactured engine- none in US Hi, Car has 130k miles and it is from 2011. Previous owner had it fairly OK maintained. Talked to few BMW dealers from all regions, and it seems - according to them - there are no remanufactured engines currently available in US. There are back orders on them; lead time is 4 to 6 weeks... and they may start getting few starting end of October with few per region. So, chances to get one soon are zero for me. Needless to say, shipping costs are not what they list on internet. Internet shows best case. I am looking at minimum 600$ to get the engine (most likely 750$ because it residential delivery, not a shop), and another min 600$ to ship the old core return. Local dealers here in Dallas TX think it is open season to ask what they want... even if MSRP is below 4k, they want 5.5k with local pick -up. Simply just because they feel like that. About the out-of-round, the internet experts say an out of round mean poorer seal, as the steel ring will not follow the oval shape very well. Of course, oil film will help offset to a certain extent, but a current 0.04mm out of round when only 0.01 mm is allowed will take a small toll on performance. Two cylinders have some light scratches. You can see them, you can feel the "abrasion", but are not deep enough to have the nail test throw the engine. Except one cylinder has a 1cm deeper scratch on top that nail can "catch it" According to the specs, i have only 0.02 mm to the 89.00 mm bore diameter that i can bore to maintain "standard" gauge, without the need to bore to +.250 (first repair gauge). I have already doubled that - 0.04mm- ... so any re-boring needs to go to +.250. Means new pistons, and new rings with the larger dimensions. So, a remanufactured is a choice. Not sure I am willing to spend 1k+ $ on BMW original rod and main bearings knowing engine will need to be replaced soon anyway. I would go with King Bearings as they are way cheaper, and I hope they can buy time for me until I can get a remanufactured engine. My only concern with king bearings is this case: min 6:25 He had the new king bearing failure in 1k miles. Hard to say what he did wrong, but that was surprise. Maybe the king bearing dimensions may not be exactly the same as the originals. Tried to understand king bearing reviews, but it is hard to separate valid legit review from a technical person from a "ask your mother to review".... So, I may be rude enough to put the old bearings back in. At least I know they still have some life in them... Or you can make a good case for King bearings from own experience Last edited by JohnelP; 09-20-2021 at 05:16 PM..
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09-20-2021, 07:16 PM	#4
Sophisticated Redneck Lieutenant Colonel 1414 Rep 1,564 Posts Drives: 2012 BMW X5 50i Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	I would reach out to some of the various engine rebuilders that work on the n63/s63 platform and ask what their opinion of King bearing is on these engines.
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09-20-2021, 07:37 PM	#5
TwinSnailz First Lieutenant 75 Rep 357 Posts Drives: 2011 X5//M Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: IL iTrader: (0)	I had use king main bearing and oem rod to help with my rebuild budget. King mains were the only one with oem material. I was only able to find 2 aftermarket bearing company which were king and acl. Both manufacturers only had tri-metal rod bearings which I don’t intend on replacing these things anytime soon. Oem bi-metal is the only way for long term.
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09-22-2021, 01:13 AM	#6
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Torque plate to ensure correct measures when heads are installed/torqued Did some research, and i found the correct way to ensure close to a good round when boring/honing + also measuring the correct value for the bore dimensions is to have a torque plate installed and torqued to cyl head bolts. Idea is to torque so it mimics real life when heads are installed and torqued. That gave me a hope, and felt a bit better knowing I was illiterate and the engine might be right. Since torque plates are so common that are sold in the candy aisle of Kroger and cost a penny, I took one piston out, installed one cyl head, torque the old head bolts to spec and did again the out of round measurement through the bottom of the cylinder. Now the measurements are even worse close to the top near the head gasket. Now the out of round is closer to 0.002" from 0.0015" previously; measured about half a inch lower from head gasket. Did tens of measurements hoping a miracle, but the dial bore gauge notoriously insisted to give me bad news. So, before throwing in the towel I will talk to some machine shops, and see what they say, and see what else they can advise.... ----------------------------------------------------. On a different topic, the main bearings seem to have the original surface bit rough. Like a extra fine nail file. Most likely for better oil retention. Main bearings have portions where that rough surface got polished. Since I tend to fade away from the idea of kings in bearings and lean to offer the old OEM pawns the chance to continue their work, i was thinking to get a 2000 grit sandpaper and lightly do a 45degree checkered cross trace. Rod shells seem to be polished, without any roughness. Would that be OK? Or do i destroy more?
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09-23-2021, 04:51 PM	#7
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	please tell me I am doing something wrong please tell me I am doing something wrong This is with cyl head installed - as i do not have a torque plate - This is the other bank, without head The dial bore gauge was set to 3.5 inch setting. I know i may state the obvious, but the higher the reading value , the smaller the distance measured i know it may sound counter-intuitive. But it does not matter the actual value, but more is the difference between the measurements
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09-24-2021, 05:10 PM	#8
Sophisticated Redneck Lieutenant Colonel 1414 Rep 1,564 Posts Drives: 2012 BMW X5 50i Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	I would just do a leak down test. If the cylinders are truly that out of round then the leak down test is going to be horrible. But if the leakdown is good, then your oil control is going to be too. I did a leakdown test on mine at 138k, everything was in 3 to 8 percent. Was burning oil like crazy, about quart every 700 miles, made up custom catch cans and increased crank case vacuum to -10psi helped, now burned a quart every 1300-1500 miles. Eventually did valve stem seals, now at 172k miles and burns half a quart every 5000 miles and engine Is tuned to 550hp and gets driven hard. I would bet all of your oil burning is related to the valve stem seals and not the cylinders/rings. Last edited by Sophisticated Redneck; 09-24-2021 at 05:22 PM..
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10-03-2021, 07:00 PM	#9
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	N63 piston oil ring orientation - does it have orientation or not? decided to keep old piston rings, as no choice to have the cylinders honed. Top and second piston rings I see they have an orientation - they have the "GOE" letters engraved - most likely from goetze, but the oil scraper ring i cannot find any mark on it, and checked also with a magnifier, and there is nothing. The oil scraper looks different than the traditional non-directional three piece combo. the scraper ring has still built-in two sleeves - up and down on exterior, and interior holds a coiled metal ring, and has grooves that were fully clogged by debris anyway. So, are the scraper rings on N63 directional or not? What is mark to indicate the up direction?
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10-14-2021, 09:15 AM	#10
Cwintx5 New Member 0 Rep 6 Posts Drives: Bmw x5 40d Join Date: Apr 2021 Location: Brisbane Australia iTrader: (0)	Man. .03mm is nothing on that size bore, I would put the pistons back in with new rings, fit new bearings to the rods and mains and look elsewhere for oil burning, have you thought that it might be turbo oil seals or like other poster said the crankcase pressure and catch can?
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10-27-2021, 12:06 AM	#11
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Correct Timing Adjusting Procedure- Please help @Cwintx5 - I gave up pouring new parts in it. Changing now the "must" ones. I took the pistons + rings out and cleaned them. And put them back in. Oil scraper little bores were completely clogged, took forever to clean, but anyway. However, I put both main and rod bearing dealer parts. Especially mains were a combination of yellow and green, so I had to go bmw original. Now I am doing the camshaft adjusters. According to BMW Tis. I need to do this: - Info taken from TIS directly: Important! When the engine is shut down, the intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters are normally locked in their initial position. The situation may arise in some individual cases where this initial position is not reached and the camshaft can continue to be rotated in the adjustment range of the camshaft adjuster. In order to avoid incorrect timing adjustment, it is essential to check the locking of the camshaft adjuster and if necessary perform locking by rotating the camshafts. Checking locking of intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters in initial setting: Gripping hexagon head (2) of camshafts with an open-end spanner (1), carefully try to rotate camshafts against direction of rotation. The intake and exhaust camshaft adjusters are locked in the initial setting when the camshafts are non-positively connected to the adjusters. Important! If the intake or exhaust camshaft adjusters of the camshafts ”cannot” be locked as described, the adjuster is faulty and must be replaced. I do not understand the instructions. What do they mean with " when the camshafts are non-positively connected to the adjusters."? What locking by rotating camshaft? Adjusters are pressed on the camshaft by the pressure of the central bolt, , there is no dowel, no pin, nothing. At re-assembly, the central bolt is not tightened, and the adjuster spins freely on the cam profile. Unless, they mean the operation should be done before releasing any timing component: the central bolt is still tight, and tensioner is still on. In that case it should not be possible to rotate the camshaft considering the adjusters/phasors cannot move as held by the chain. But that means it needs to be done before touching any timing component, before disassembly. In my case, in the re-assembly phase, should i tighten the phasors with the old bolts to see if there is any camshaft movement? Something is not right, it should not be that complicated. However Martin Christensen does not do this in his video. Either he missed it, or it is irrelevant; don't know How did you do it? --------------------------------------------------------------. Need to be a little careful here, as I messed up when I took the chains out. I had the cams locked when I rotated the crank counterclock >90 to compress the tensioners, and I thought I hit the valves with the pistons. the chain got stuck on the second tensioner, so i could not rotate more to compress the second one. Sad memories.... So i need now to make sure I get all details right Last edited by JohnelP; 10-27-2021 at 01:47 AM..
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10-27-2021, 02:16 AM	#12
Sophisticated Redneck Lieutenant Colonel 1414 Rep 1,564 Posts Drives: 2012 BMW X5 50i Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	Only way I see the adjusters not being in the locked position is if they are bad (unless you reverse rotated the engine before releasing them from the cam)as when you rotate the engine by hand to get everything lined up, they are naturally going to be pushed back to the locked position. Just don't try to rotate the engine in reverse, even a few mm if you go to far when locking in th crank with the TDC tool, rotating in reverse even just slightly can bring the adjusters out of locked position so if you go to far, rotate the engine a full combustion cycle again until it's perfectly aligned. When everything is bolted back up and torqued, rotate engine two full combustion cycles and check cam timing again. If your adjusters we're not locked, the timing will be off, which isn't a biggie, just take off the timing chain tensioners and replace the cam bolts and retorque. Don't try to reuse the cam bolts, they are one time use only due to the stretch and make sure to use copper anti-seize under the bolt washer only.
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11-13-2021, 01:57 AM	#13
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Valve Work - Expensive mistake I thought I may just get away with just cleaning the valves with carburator cleaner without removing them and lap them. Big mistake. Mistake cost two new head gaskets, new head bolts, new phasor bolts o-rings, etc. Expensive mistake.... Dealer had the valve seals done by the CPO two years ago and bit < 15k miles, so I thought I am safe. Bumped in my cyl leak tester looking for something else, and remembered Sophisticated Redneck mentioned to do a cyl leak test. So I did. I was almost ready to put the engine back in the car. Cyl heads are out again and took the valves out. Pain to take the engine apart again; though this time took only a day dismantle and half a day extra for the valve springs-> until i figured out the tricks for the keepers with the valve compressor tool. I see there are many opinions on valve clean/lap. I see there are many grits for the grind paste. Can't find anything in bmw's newtis on this; maybe I did not search right... Given I am not in mood to try and fail, need to see if there is a guaranteed right way. So, can i use sandpaper to clean the valves of carbon deposits? If yes, what grit? Other way? Danger of scratching? On the lapping, what metal grinding paste grit should I use? If I decide to use the drill instead of manual suction cup tool, what speed should I use on the drill? and how hard should I push? Next, how to check the valves seal properly? I think the water test may be too weak, and I would like to make sure the valves seal before throwing hundreds$ on new head gaskets.. Any tricks to check the seal before fitting the cyl head back in place? Opinions welcomed
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11-13-2021, 05:02 AM	#15
Sophisticated Redneck Lieutenant Colonel 1414 Rep 1,564 Posts Drives: 2012 BMW X5 50i Join Date: Jul 2018 Location: CA iTrader: (0)	Below are some pics of everything I used. Highly recommend you don't use a drill but instead use the Milwaukee driver l used in the attached pics, its much lighter then a drill and allows you much greater control and feel which is critical when lapping the valves. Flex shaft is from one of those 90 degree drill add-ons. My intake valves were ok but the exhaust were severely pitted from all of the excessive oil burning due to the valve stem seals leaking. Dont use the coarse from the kit, just use the fine grade. Takes about 3-5 min on each valve to clean them up if memory serves. As for testing, I really didnt have a way until the heads were installed so just did the best I could, I stopped lapping as soon as most of the pitting was gone. Did a leak down test after installing the heads back on and all were within 5-7 percent, no leaks past valves, only past the rings, which at the time the engine was at 138k so to be expected. Now at 173K and tuned well over 500hp and still knocking out low 12 second 1/4 miles so the lapping did its thing.. I also polished up the intake ports, combustion chambers, and pistons as you can see in the pics. If you care to do the same Ill post all the details and what I learned in another post. Attached Images
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11-13-2021, 10:02 AM	#16
Attacking Mid Enlisted Member 15 Rep 46 Posts Drives: e46, e53, e83, e70 Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Colorado iTrader: (0)	A wire wheel on a bench grinder works great to clean carbon off valves. I imagine just unclogging those oil rings and piston passage may reduce your oil consumption significantly. Your failed valve stem seals would have overwhelmed the oil rings resulting in clogging and the inability the pass oil back under the pistons. I didn't see how long it had been since the VS seals were replaced, but I'd be tempted to renew them again given the problems people have with them. AM.
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11-13-2021, 12:23 PM	#17
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Appreciate your advise Thanks a lot! @Attacking Mid - Valve seals were done by BMW in April 2019 and about 15k miles ago part of the CCP. They still look new. I was hoping BMW would take care of details a bit better. Intake ports were in horrible state, as if they have been filled with tar. Same the intake manifold and back of the valves. Hidden in deep carbon+oil deposits. Exhaust valve+ ports were in better shape. Took me an eternity to clean. Especially the top of pistons, grooves , piston rings + the valves intake ports. In fact 75% of the time on this rebuild was cleaning... Took it with soft baby steps, as I was afraid of scratches and => machining the whole thing. I would not go with bench grinder, but how about a brass wire brush? 80 grit sandpaper is too dangerous? Don't know where is the line between a scratch that is OK from one that will trigger a leak; looking at tight tolerances, i do not trust my visual inspection @SophisticatedRedneck - Just saw a video where he was using a rubber hose to hook the electric driver with the tip of the valve stem. What I could not figure is how fast was spinning the drill, how much pressure did he apply and for how long. I see the tap thing while lapping is important. I think the consensus is to lap until the grinding paste makes the "uniform grey band on the lip of the valve and the valve seat" Coming to valve seats. Not sure if N63 has it or not, but i knew valve seats are a different material coating. That's why i was afraid to go hard on cleaning. Any tips on cleaning the valve seat before starting the lapping process? Valve seat cleaning - I assume a wire brush is a no go with aluminum. ScotchBrite? wirewool? ========================== Glad you shared the cyl leak tester for this N63. One cylinder that had lower valve leaks was getting closer to 5% leak. However my AudiA4 at 200k miles with the old 1.8T was reading 2% leak on cyl 1 and 4, and 4% on cyl 2 and 3. But i could tell clearly the noise of leak past the rings in the crankcase was clearly louder in the N63 than the Audi. Not sure, too early to judge. I 'll see how it goes
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11-13-2021, 12:36 PM	#18
Attacking Mid Enlisted Member 15 Rep 46 Posts Drives: e46, e53, e83, e70 Join Date: Feb 2019 Location: Colorado iTrader: (0)	I would also check around for a good machine shop in your area who does lots of engine work just to see what they would charge to grind the valves and re-cut the seats. The trouble with simply lapping them in is that your seats will be much wider than originally spec'd due to wear. A too-wide valve seat is vulnerable to carbon build-up and just general poor sealing. If they only have to do the grinding and cutting with you doing the disassembly/reassembly, it may not be as expensive as you fear. You would end up with a longer lasting and better performing top end. I just saw you mentioned a coating on the valve seats. If that's the case, then re-cutting is likely not possible. I'm speaking from general engine experience and not from personal BMW engine building, so I may be ignorant of some aspects. AM.
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11-13-2021, 04:36 PM	#20
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Thanks! My intake valves looked worse than yours in the picture. You are correct, the "final deposits" are painful I am in the process of cleaning the valves with wire brush. Brass one was way too soft. Steel one was doing better. Deposits were hard as a rock, so not even the steel wire brush could do something until I soaked the valves in sea foam for 1 h. Checked the sandpaper grip and 80 is too harsh, even worse than wire brush. So for the valves, being steel, i will get harder and will get them cleaned someway. Now, the valve seats are coated with carbon deposits hard as a rock too. I'll get a picture of them. Given the seats are in aluminum block, what can i use to make sure i do not disturb the valve seat profile? Some plastic brush that be fit to a drill? Attached Images Last edited by JohnelP; 11-13-2021 at 04:50 PM..
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11-17-2021, 11:45 PM	#22
JohnelP Enlisted Member 4 Rep 35 Posts Drives: 5 Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: T iTrader: (0)	Hi, Status report to make sure i do not mess up. Cleaned the valves. On the exhaust ones, indeed the x-acto blade and the drill is the only way to clean exhaust valves. Started light with hand 00 scotch brite, then the abrasive wheels on drill practically wasting my time, to end up with the x-acto blade. Made sure I did not touch the seating surface and the stem. Intake valves were easier to clean, did not need the blade. Abrasive pads were OK, with the same note I made sure the seating surface was not touched. Valve seats were cleaned with the abrasive wheels, and further away from the seat surface with a dremel wire wheel brush with lowest speed dremel could go and easiest touch. =========================. Now the valve lapping. Decided to do it by hand, as seen some advices against using drill. The seating surface of the valves has many small craters / small dense pits. Valve seat also, though those are visible with a magnifying glass. So far I am doing one exhaust valve and: The grinding compound attaches strongly to the seating surface of the valve. It forms a layer that gets grey, dull and uniform over the steel that prevents any further grinding of the steel. I can see the uniform grey look people (i think?) refer to, but I am not sure that is the grey surface i am targeting. Tring to clean the compound with a cloth or a brush was impossible. Had to go pretty hard to remove the compound from the seat surface. ValveSeat surface was still pitted. The valve seats on cyl head were a bit more cooperative. So, i have not seen in any video/manual people having hard time to remove the grinding compound from the seat surface. One cloth wipe seems to do the trick for them. What am I doing wrong? If i continue like this, the valve seat will wear beyond specs and the valve contact surface is barely grinding. I am assuming, in between grinding steps, the contact surfaces must be completely free of old compound, right? Using the permatex valve grinding compound found on every shop. Same thing that everyone uses.
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