Pureturbos Stage 1 and stage 2

[Dawgz]

Searched for a bit but can't really find any dynos or numbers that the e70 x5m has put down with pureturbos stage 1 and stage 2.


Does anyone know? Is the stock engine able to handle the power from the stage 2 turbos?

[Dawgz]

So it seems stage 2 turbos will get you close to 600 at the wheel while stage 1 gets you to 530-540whp


These numbers seem super low for bigger turbos. How is the stock F85 making so much power (520wheel). They have the larger TU turbos but that seems to be like stage 2 PureTurbos for the e70 x5m.

I wonder if the upgraded manifold and the TU turbos would provide better results for the e70 x5m than just the stage 2 PureTurbos using the stock manifold.

[wcs531]

The figures do seem rather low, which made me a little curious. Just my thoughts, nothing concrete:

1. S63 runs lower compression (9.3:1) than S63TU (10.0:1) so you need to run more boost to make same power.

2. Tuners likely shifted all their focus to the S63TU when the F10 M5 came out. S63 (non-TU) market is pretty limited since it was only available in the X5M/X6M, so probably not worth it to sink more development costs.

Just quick list of changes to S63TU from Wikipedia (obviously there are more changes but didnt want to go too far down the rabbit hole):
"This version uses Valvetronic, a 10:1 compression ratio (compared with 9.3:1 for the non-TU version) and 1.5 bar of boost (compared with 1.3). It is the first BMW M engine to use Valvetronic. The rev limit was increased from 6800 rpm to 7200 rpm."

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by wcs531

The figures do seem rather low, which made me a little curious. Just my thoughts, nothing concrete:

1. S63 runs lower compression (9.3:1) than S63TU (10.0:1) so you need to run more boost to make same power.

2. Tuners likely shifted all their focus to the S63TU when the F10 M5 came out. S63 (non-TU) market is pretty limited since it was only available in the X5M/X6M, so probably not worth it to sink more development costs.

Just quick list of changes to S63TU from Wikipedia (obviously there are more changes but didnt want to go too far down the rabbit hole):
"This version uses Valvetronic, a 10:1 compression ratio (compared with 9.3:1 for the non-TU version) and 1.5 bar of boost (compared with 1.3). It is the first BMW M engine to use Valvetronic. The rev limit was increased from 6800 rpm to 7200 rpm."

I would have to read up on the valvetronic to see what it is but the peak power on these are made at around 5200-5500rpm so the higher rev limit shouldn't matter.

[S.W.G.]

Drivetrain loss, head flow, top of block heat soak, drivetrain ratio, all will influence WHP. Remember most comparisons are probably looking at OEM crank vs. real world wheel. 600+ at the wheels is probably 725 crank.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by S.W.G.

Drivetrain loss, head flow, top of block heat soak, drivetrain ratio, all will influence WHP. Remember most comparisons are probably looking at OEM crank vs. real world wheel. 600+ at the wheels is probably 725 crank.

The S63(E70) and S63TU (F85) have the same head flow, same top of block heat soak. I cant imagine a 8 speed trans from ZF putting down more power vs the 6speed from ZF, the dynos are run on the 1:1 gear ratio.

All these numbers above are being mentioned at wheel per dyno results. So still doesn't really explain the insane difference.

Only thing that makes sense is the compression ratio and that the TU turbos put out at least 30psi where as the stock e70 X5M turbos will hit 17.

[S.W.G.]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

The S63(E70) and S63TU (F85) have the same head flow, same top of block heat soak. I cant imagine a 8 speed trans from ZF putting down more power vs the 6speed from ZF, the dynos are run on the 1:1 gear ratio.

All these numbers above are being mentioned at wheel per dyno results. So still doesn't really explain the insane difference.

Only thing that makes sense is the compression ratio and that the TU turbos put out at least 30psi where as the stock e70 X5M turbos will hit 17.

I didn't know that, but good to know! Next best bet would be to look at the flow charts - my background is n54/n55, just barely picked my S63 two days ago

[wcs531]

Assuming either the engine internals, transmission, or differential don't just give up with more power, I think its just lack of development. Because there are somewhat significant differences from the S63 to the S63TU, they cant just slap a tune on one from another. The N54 took years to keep pushing the boundaries further and there were multiple tuners all gunning for more hp.

Ultimately, the number of paying customers trying to get 600+whp on an e70 X5m or e71 X6m are too limited to justify the R&D costs for a shop since the S63 hit end of life as soon as the S63TU came out. I dont have the sales figures for those two models but I bet the f10 M5 outsold the X5M/X6M by a decent margin, plus I bet a larger percentage of owners would tune them.

[S.W.G.]

Originally Posted by wcs531

Assuming either the engine internals, transmission, or differential don't just give up with more power, I think its just lack of development. Because there are somewhat significant differences from the S63 to the S63TU, they cant just slap a tune on one from another. The N54 took years to keep pushing the boundaries further and there were multiple tuners all gunning for more hp.

Ultimately, the number of paying customers trying to get 600+whp on an e70 X5m or e71 X6m are too limited to justify the R&D costs for a shop since the S63 hit end of life as soon as the S63TU came out. I dont have the sales figures for those two models but I bet the f10 M5 outsold the X5M/X6M by a decent margin, plus I bet a larger percentage of owners would tune them.

This is a very valid point. I can find anything and everything for the S63TU, but S63 is few and far between, and expensive as hell in comparison. Hell, a canned tune is asked to be upwards of 1-2k, when every other car I've ever modified would range between 450-650 for a fully custom setup. 1800 bucks for a downpipes? Pffft, my Z06 exhaust cost less for headers, x-pipe, intake, pulley and tune.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by S.W.G.

This is a very valid point. I can find anything and everything for the S63TU, but S63 is few and far between, and expensive as hell in comparison. Hell, a canned tune is asked to be upwards of 1-2k, when every other car I've ever modified would range between 450-650 for a fully custom setup. 1800 bucks for a downpipes? Pffft, my Z06 exhaust cost less for headers, x-pipe, intake, pulley and tune.

Depends what downpipes you get. RM downpipes, which I'm running were about 350-400.