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      04-04-2017, 04:28 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JMX6V8 View Post
Myaddiction,

I have Velos Stage 2 tuning on my 2010 X6 5.0. I was thinking on getting the JB4. Are you saying that both of these are the same?
No, The tunes are all the same.

The JB4 is a piggyback (basically a computer that intercepts the signals from the factory sensors and modifies them to make the factory ECU do what the piggyback manufacturer wants.) The Factory BMW ECU is very adaptive and will protect the engine even when it is being fed modified signals to a point. Which is why the JB4 is so popular on BMWs but other car brands don't really have something comparable.

Apples and Oranges really though the end result is similar. The JB4 has a lot more features and adjustments you can't get with a tune.
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      04-09-2017, 09:33 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
I ran the standard stage 2 tune. All the tuners have the same tune that was made by the same person. They are just vendors not tuners. Nobody has a custom tune for the S63 non-TU motor. The market is to small and there are no more gains to be had beyond the stage two with the stock turbo.
I don't know who your "standard" stage 2 tune was from, so feel free to mention them. I've read about how these tunes ALL started out as simple tune(s) after BR Consulting cracked the encryption. After each vendor gets their hands on it, who knows for certain. It's been my assumption that they buy the tune/crack, tweak it even just a little bit so they can say it's their own and then charge whatever they think their name and/or diehard followers will pay. When I'd first bought my ESS tune, they offered three different levels of their stage 2, but I never actually installed the tune since Halim from HC Performance reached out to me about trying his tune. Halim, who was new to tuning at the time, made an arrangement where I paid half up front and in exchange he'd send me PC software for reading & flashing and the cord needed, I send him a copy of my stock flash and later he'd sent me a tweaked version of said flash. The remainder of our arrangement was that if I hit his agreed upon improvement of at least 80hp on a dyno, I pay the remainder...that was over a year ago.

Long story short, but I've kind of hit a wall with adjusting the JB4 for the S63 since it simply lacks the support that their bread and butter platforms (N54, N55, etc) would get. Terry created a firmware change to the JB4 after myself and others needed a few tweaks, but for me, it's gotten to the point where Terry and Steve said I'll need to reach out to my tuner before we can go further. My next mods will be meth, M5 headers and TLOA stage 2 turbos. My tuner said that in order to run the headers, he'll have to create yet another tune and said that it'll ultimately make the JB4 unnecessary for me anymore. I'll still be keeping it for meth control, gauge monitoring and logs and for map 4 safety precautions. Unless you know something my tuner doesn't, I'm inclined to believe that the statement of "all tunes are the same" isn't true...unless buying from bigger names who only wanna make a quick buck and walk away.

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Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
If you read the thread where Burger Motor Sports tuned the truck that started this thread you will see extra boost beyond the canned stage 2 tune level on the stock turbos does nothing.
That's pretty much been disproven already in that a stock flashed truck with JB4 only was run on map 6 @ 20psi across the board and ran an 11.7 quarter mile. I've never seen my flashed tune go over 15psi. The stock flash 17.4psi is a pressure that is reached when conditions require it, ie higher elevations, high ambient air temps, etc...17.4 psi isn't a daily run number. There's a Top Gear episode where they had an F10 M5 and explained how this worked when they were in Australia and it was like 120* there during testing.

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Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
Completely untrue. Stacking the JB4 with a tune on this platform is a waste of money. That is only effective if the tunes can not reach the max effective boost levels for the turbo/motor. Not the case at all with our motor. This is valid with the S63TU motor, not ours.
LOL...I'm going to have to politely disagree with your disagreement. As mentioned above, my flash only tune (JB4 on map 0) reaches at most 15psi @ sea level. JB4 on map 1 (adds 4psi to whatever the stock/tuned flash is) and I hit 19psi like clockwork. Map 6 I'm currently logging at 21psi from 2500rpm to redline to see how the truck handles it. I've had to since run 2 step colder plugs with tigher gaps to stop misfires, do some tweaking to the fuel pressure on the HPFP to stop maxing out trims, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that the truck is a monster and stacked is anything but a waste of money. No offense to my tuner, but going to map 0 (stock or flash tune only, depends on whatever that person has in their vehicle) now feels like I'm towing a trailer, but map 1 or 6 and it's a COMPLETELY different vehicle.
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Last edited by m5james; 04-09-2017 at 10:21 PM.
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      04-10-2017, 10:51 AM   #47
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Guys,

of all that I have read, i am surprised no one has mentioned upgrading there fuel pump to something more powerful and Ethanol compatible......like the Walbro 450 for example?

I know Jose B@Ft.Hood has started there
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      04-11-2017, 09:32 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by m5james View Post
I don't know who your "standard" stage 2 tune was from, so feel free to mention them.
Not sure if you're messing with me at this point. You responded right above that post after I mentioned it was the AA tune twice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m5james View Post
This still begs the question...was AA's tune the same canned tune for anyone vs being custom tuned for those turbos?
Quote:
Originally Posted by m5james View Post
I've read about how these tunes ALL started out as simple tune(s) after BR Consulting cracked the encryption. After each vendor gets their hands on it, who knows for certain. It's been my assumption that they buy the tune/crack, tweak it even just a little bit so they can say it's their own and then charge whatever they think their name and/or diehard followers will pay. When I'd first bought my ESS tune, they offered three different levels of their stage 2, but I never actually installed the tune since Halim from HC Performance reached out to me about trying his tune. Halim, who was new to tuning at the time, made an arrangement where I paid half up front and in exchange he'd send me PC software for reading & flashing and the cord needed, I send him a copy of my stock flash and later he'd sent me a tweaked version of said flash. The remainder of our arrangement was that if I hit his agreed upon improvement of at least 80hp on a dyno, I pay the remainder...that was over a year ago.
Yep, it's all a BR tune. Some of the Vendors have done insignificant tweaks to legally claim it as theirs. Nothing besides minor stuff that often gets washed out by the compensation tables. Ask them to make actual changes to the tune based on logged data and the tap dancing starts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m5james View Post
Long story short, but I've kind of hit a wall with adjusting the JB4 for the S63 since it simply lacks the support that their bread and butter platforms (N54, N55, etc) would get. Terry created a firmware change to the JB4 after myself and others needed a few tweaks, but for me, it's gotten to the point where Terry and Steve said I'll need to reach out to my tuner before we can go further. My next mods will be meth, M5 headers and TLOA stage 2 turbos. My tuner said that in order to run the headers, he'll have to create yet another tune and said that it'll ultimately make the JB4 unnecessary for me anymore. I'll still be keeping it for meth control, gauge monitoring and logs and for map 4 safety precautions. Unless you know something my tuner doesn't, I'm inclined to believe that the statement of "all tunes are the same" isn't true...unless buying from bigger names who only wanna make a quick buck and walk away.



That's pretty much been disproven already in that a stock flashed truck with JB4 only was run on map 6 @ 20psi across the board and ran an 11.7 quarter mile. I've never seen my flashed tune go over 15psi. The stock flash 17.4psi is a pressure that is reached when conditions require it, ie higher elevations, high ambient air temps, etc...17.4 psi isn't a daily run number. There's a Top Gear episode where they had an F10 M5 and explained how this worked when they were in Australia and it was like 120* there during testing.



LOL...I'm going to have to politely disagree with your disagreement. As mentioned above, my flash only tune (JB4 on map 0) reaches at most 15psi @ sea level. JB4 on map 1 (adds 4psi to whatever the stock/tuned flash is) and I hit 19psi like clockwork. Map 6 I'm currently logging at 21psi from 2500rpm to redline to see how the truck handles it. I've had to since run 2 step colder plugs with tigher gaps to stop misfires, do some tweaking to the fuel pressure on the HPFP to stop maxing out trims, but I can tell you with 100% certainty that the truck is a monster and stacked is anything but a waste of money. No offense to my tuner, but going to map 0 (stock or flash tune only, depends on whatever that person has in their vehicle) now feels like I'm towing a trailer, but map 1 or 6 and it's a COMPLETELY different vehicle.
I'm glad you're getting results. I'm not selling parts, simply stating the data I have. At sea level in San Diego @70F mine hits 17.4 on the stock tune and the AA stage 2 tune hits 21 with timing corrections on the top end even with E30. Same as before the Stage 1 upgrade.

Would like to see your JB4 logs to see what timing is doing for you at that boost level.

I'm sure if you put the time and money into it there are gains to be had. I just don't see it with this platform. On my GTR it was 4K in parts and I was in the 10's. This platform is cheap to buy now and a fun DD at the DP and tune level. After that you're blazing the path. I hope it works out for you.
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      04-11-2017, 10:09 PM   #49
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Is Map 6 tune something already loaded into the JB4 or do i need to request a new file? Ive run maps 1/2 so far.
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      04-13-2017, 04:01 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
Not sure if you're messing with me at this point. You responded right above that post after I mentioned it was the AA tune twice.
Sorry, I started replying via my phone (which died) and then edited at a later point on a work computer while trying to rush a reply. I'd forgotten you had an AA tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
Yep, it's all a BR tune. Some of the Vendors have done insignificant tweaks to legally claim it as theirs. Nothing besides minor stuff that often gets washed out by the compensation tables. Ask them to make actual changes to the tune based on logged data and the tap dancing starts.
"Yep, it's all *started as* a BR tune. I can't imagine that my tuner is saying he can make me a tune that'll make the JB4 unnecessary, much like they do over on the M5 boards, and only have it done by little tweaks. What they do exactly is beyond me, but that's a bit of a stretch. My tuner is sending me a second tune based on my logs and issues that have arisen due to settings via the JB4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
I'm glad you're getting results. I'm not selling parts, simply stating the data I have. At sea level in San Diego @70F mine hits 17.4 on the stock tune and the AA stage 2 tune hits 21 with timing corrections on the top end even with E30. Same as before the Stage 1 upgrade.
What are you using to see that you're hitting these PSI's? Are you implying that you hitting these PSI's on the daily, no matter what? The only reason I ask what your using to see these numbers is that I've used the Torque app for months, pre and post tune, and no matter what, I'd only see 17.4PSI. I'm sure there was some PID I needed to change, I even found a few threads about how it's done, but nothing I did changed what was displayed. I also know there's something about commanded vs actual and absolute vs targeted. There was a Top Gear episode with an F10 M5 in Australia that explained it vaguely in that the engine would adjust its boost as needed so that no matter, it'd hit it's advertised numbers...it might only need 10PSI when it's 30* and sea level but it'd push the full 17.4PSI when it's 80* out and at 5000'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
Would like to see your JB4 logs to see what timing is doing for you at that boost level.
Mind you, my logs are a mess, I've made changes to spark plugs and gaps, fuel mixtures, etc and I'm still waiting for my second tune. At this point the I've pretty much stopped running any E85 mixtures or doing anymore logging until I get meth going - http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45655

Quote:
Originally Posted by Myaddiction View Post
I'm sure if you put the time and money into it there are gains to be had. I just don't see it with this platform. On my GTR it was 4K in parts and I was in the 10's. This platform is cheap to buy now and a fun DD at the DP and tune level. After that you're blazing the path. I hope it works out for you.
That's comparing apples to oranges...as rare as the GTR might be, the X*M is even rarer, so HP per dollar spent will never match. I've told the GF that dollar per dollar, her 535xiT could walk me if we spent as much on hers as I've done on mine.

My next mods in order are a BMS meth kit since I sold my Aquamist setup, adding and x-pipe and deleteing the stock muffler to put Vibrant resonators in their place (suggestion from M6Beast, he's got YouTube videos that'll give an idea on how it sounds) and last but not least adding F10 M5 headers after I have either Pure or Turbo Labs of America make me some stage 2's. After that I'm screwed because the trans can't handle the power...a company will rebuild it to handle over 1k for $5k or a buddy is determined to think he can swap in the DCT from an F10 M5.

I agree that these are getting cheap to buy and to a point can even be cheap to get more power. Nice example of a JB4 only truck doing 11.7 - http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44867
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      04-13-2017, 04:08 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonelm3-X5M View Post
Guys,

of all that I have read, i am surprised no one has mentioned upgrading there fuel pump to something more powerful and Ethanol compatible......like the Walbro 450 for example?

I know Jose B@Ft.Hood has started there
Our fueling system is E85 compatible now, the problem is that we don't have the luxury of flashes like the N54 guys do where they can run a simple BEF atop their JB4 and run any mixture of E85 as the flash controls changes on the pressure of the fuel pump, timing, yada yada yada. It seems that my X5M doesn't seem to like E30 mixtures that much as it tends to reach the max of the fuel trims, so I've stayed with only pump gas from here on out until a flash or something comes out to address it...but I'm not holding my breathe. Terry had mentioned that running meth with E85 will help with the timing, but I'll play with adding ethanol after I get meth dialed in.

With all that said, I was having certain situations where my trims were maxing out, so I was told to adjust my FOL (fuel open loop) from 60 to 80 and that should increase the pressure from the fuel pump. I didn't get drivetrain faults, something they said might happen if the DME freaks out, and to back it down to 70, but it's held steady at 80 and I'm no longer maxing trims. I'm NOT claiming I know the answer, but it sounds like fuel pressure isn't an issue for us just yet vs it being able to use it properly.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46161
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      04-17-2017, 08:27 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m5james View Post
With all that said, I was having certain situations where my trims were maxing out, so I was told to adjust my FOL (fuel open loop) from 60 to 80 and that should increase the pressure from the fuel pump. I didn't get drivetrain faults, something they said might happen if the DME freaks out, and to back it down to 70, but it's held steady at 80 and I'm no longer maxing trims. I'm NOT claiming I know the answer, but it sounds like fuel pressure isn't an issue for us just yet vs it being able to use it properly.

http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46161


It looks like the tune can crank up fuel pressure which can increase fuel quantity injected, but not enough on its own to deliver the amount of fueling e85 requires. Can you adjust injection duration?


Yeah that is a typical situation for folks trying to use E85. The problem as you know is our cars are tuned for gasoline which is stoichiometric at typically 14.7:1. E85 is about 9.8:1 so E85 which means the car needs to increase fueling by nearly 50% to reach stoich with that fuel. The car has some ability to adjust fuel delivery to maintain stocihometric ratios, but typically not more than 20%-30% which is why e85 doesn't work right.

But since you're not maxing the fueling potential of the engine, I suspect the engine maybe more timing (not optimal in the tunes) and air flow limited.

BTW adding meth can help some but if we're air flow limited then adding more fuel (meth) to the engine won't increase power substantially.

Do you have any logs of timing, knock, mass air flow, fueling and iat? Id just be curious if the turbos are blowing more heat and not adding more air causing a pull in timing etc.
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      04-18-2017, 03:23 PM   #53
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Logs link is on post #50
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      04-20-2017, 10:10 AM   #54
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Logs link is on post #50
So I took a look at some of your logs.. Just a couple of observations;
1) its hard to really see whats happening in your engine the tool your using has a very low sampling rate, you get 1 data point about every 1.25-4 seconds. With this resolution it will be hard to catch a lot of transient behavior like timing changes, boost oscillation, etc. ideally you'd like a sample rate of 5-6hz or 5-6 times a second to catch transient behavior. Might try logging less parameters to see if you can increase your sampling rate.
2) most of your pulls are in a narrow rpm range. I would suggest getting a few more full range pulls starting in 4th gear and running to redline if possible to get a lot of good sampling. Most pulls are starting in the 4000rpm range and terminating around 5500rpm. I know this is hard to accomplish on public roads. But it would shed light on the health of the engine at all rpm's not just the narrow range.
3) I notice a lot of boost fluctuation in the car. What I mean is that boost will rise as rpm rises, then drop as you approach redline, then increase again. This isn't normal, boost should not rise past the point of peak turbo flow. May indicate a problem with boost control system, valve springs, leaks, etc. but its hard to say without logging of mass air flow. The car may also be pulling boost as a safety measure if there are a lot of misfires going on. Might help to measure timing per cylinder.
4) I also notice a lot of throttle plate fluctuation too on your car. You have the peddle floored, I see at 2800-3000rpm the car hits 100% throttle, snaps the throttle closed to 38% at 3900 rpm, even though you've not lifted the throttle, but dosen't pull timing, wonder whats going on there something not being captured in the log? A car / Tune safety measure to limit torque at mid rpm ranges?

example from 2017-03-14 01_23_18
timestamp rpm boost pedal throttle avg_ign
19 2442 0.2 100 77 0
20.5 2399 1.2 100 81 0.9
22.25 2555 3.1 100 90 2.5
24.25 2671 5.1 100 95 4.3
24.75 2730 6.9 100 97 5.8
27.75 2828 8.2 100 100 7.3
29.75 2885 9.4 100 100 8.6
31 3082 10.2 100 100 10
33 3134 11.4 100 100 11.1
34.75 3325 12.6 100 75 12.2
36.5 3419 14 100 72 13.5
38.5 3537 15.2 100 51 14.4
40.25 3728 15.2 100 40 14.4
41.75 3933 16.3 100 38 15.3

Last edited by Thecastle; 04-20-2017 at 10:20 AM.
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      04-20-2017, 03:57 PM   #55
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m5james dont you have a jb4? jb4 should be able to log everything, does the S63 jb4 not able to log?
when i was street tunning my pure stage2 335 my tuner would ask me to start logging at 2k rpm in 3rd gear and take it to fifth (WOT runs).
If the jb4 for the x5m cant log i might have to skip it...
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      05-25-2017, 10:59 PM   #56
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These are all JB4 logs, I don't know if I have the ability to adjust the sampling rate.
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      06-29-2017, 09:31 PM   #57
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I read a thread on here that the Bluetooth OBDII dongle that's just sitting there doing nothing could actually be stealing resources and slowing the refresh rate. I'll remove the dongle next time I do logs after my meth install next weekend.
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      07-07-2017, 09:37 AM   #58
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I read a thread on here that the Bluetooth OBDII dongle that's just sitting there doing nothing could actually be stealing resources and slowing the refresh rate. I'll remove the dongle next time I do logs after my meth install next weekend.
Interesting.
How did the meth install go?
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      07-07-2017, 02:38 PM   #59
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Plan is to install it this weekend...damn mandatory OT screwed up my plans for a 4 day weekend on the 4th as well :-/ Found a friend of a friend locally who's got 2 55gal drums of methanol which I'm buying for a steal at $250, then I've got a firmware update to apply to the JB4...I'm excited to see how it'll help with the higher the average temps we've been having here in Seattle.
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