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      05-26-2023, 09:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Hatcher View Post
I am supposed to be outraged, disappointed or otherwise triggered?
I'm outraged. How dare they push the envelope of technology. The era of CD's and bag phones was that greatest IMO and that should be the case for everyone.
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      05-26-2023, 10:43 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I'm outraged. How dare they push the envelope of technology. The era of CD's and bag phones was that greatest IMO and that should be the case for everyone.
Nice straw man!

If "drivers can go long distances without touching the steering wheel or pedals", are they really driving? Is the Ultimate Driver's Machine really that any longer?
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      05-26-2023, 10:50 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Nice straw man!

If "drivers can go long distances without touching the steering wheel or pedals", are they really driving? Is the Ultimate Driver's Machine really that any longer?
^
This.
....which is the reason the OP (that would be me) challenges if BMW's slogan applies when self-autonomy is the end result.
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      05-26-2023, 12:58 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
Nice straw man!

If "drivers can go long distances without touching the steering wheel or pedals", are they really driving? Is the Ultimate Driver's Machine really that any longer?
Truth be told, they haven't really been the 'ultimate driving machine' in a LOOOOOOOONG time, and it didn't help that their designs have been getting more and more ridiculous/contrived/grotesque.
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      05-26-2023, 01:46 PM   #27
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Ultimate Gimmick Machine
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      05-26-2023, 03:26 PM   #28
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As much as I’d enjoy pouring fuel on the fire like others have, this thread is dumb. Can we talk about the stupidness of the feature and potential safety concerns, instead of poking fun at the slogan.

With that out of the way. Idk why BMW decided such a feature was good. Literally you can do this in their cars by pressing on the turn signal stalk, it’s effortless, and works well, I love it in my car. I use it all the time. What is the gain for this over pushing on a stalk? Nothing. All that time wasted in coding and engineering this feature for little purpose because they already have the feature implemented better. Some senior project dude should be fired.
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      05-28-2023, 02:58 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
I'm outraged. How dare they push the envelope of technology. The era of CD's and bag phones was that greatest IMO and that should be the case for everyone.
There's a term for it... Over-reach. Specifically, engineering over-reach.

I'd rather BMW spend the development money on a Retromod E30.
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      05-28-2023, 03:15 PM   #30
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BMWs biggest problem right now is its complete lack of steering feel. It's really, really bad and was one of the things that separated them from the pack. I don't know how they fix that, but electric steering is the worst thing that's happened to BMW in my opinion.
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      05-28-2023, 05:34 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
BMWs biggest problem right now is its complete lack of steering feel. It's really, really bad and was one of the things that separated them from the pack. I don't know how they fix that, but electric steering is the worst thing that's happened to BMW in my opinion.
Porsche found a way to get some feel into their EPAS system, BMW seems unconcerned and uninterested in doing so. That, and other decisions, leads me to believe they either don't know their customer profile or are seeking another one.
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      05-29-2023, 10:29 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
BMWs biggest problem right now is its complete lack of steering feel. It's really, really bad and was one of the things that separated them from the pack. I don't know how they fix that, but electric steering is the worst thing that's happened to BMW in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allinon72 View Post
Porsche found a way to get some feel into their EPAS system, BMW seems unconcerned and uninterested in doing so. That, and other decisions, leads me to believe they either don't know their customer profile or are seeking another one.
I tried to find the article but couldn't. Sometime in 2013 Car and Driver published an article about the ATS EPS compared to the BMW F30 EPS. The article noted that the ATS and BMW share the exact same ZF EPS steering rack. It is well known the ATS had far better steering feel than the F30 and was my observation as well. Being the ATS and F30 share the same ZF rack, the steering feel is more than just the design of the EPS rack. Steering feel also comes from the rest of the steering system and suspension design and chassis design. Cadillac was able to get a better steering feel from the same rack the F30 used by designing a stronger front subframe in the ATS and better suspension geometry. EPS can be made with good steering feel. You'll laugh, but my 2022 Bronco has better steering feel than the several F30s I've driven. BMW just missed the mark with the F30.

IIRC BMW's first foray into EPS was in the E85/86 Z4 (non-M). I know some will disagree, but I think the E85/86 EPS is very, very good. So good that I did not realize my E86 (I bought used from CarMax) did not have hydraulic steering until I went looking for the PS reservoir to check the hydraulic oil level - LOL. Not seeing a pump and reservoir nor motor on the steering rack, I went to RealOEM.com to verify the power steering system. That's when I discovered BMW's E85/86 EPS powers the steering shaft rather than the steering rack. An ingenious solution, I think. Why BMW dropped that design I've never have discovered through internet searches.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      05-30-2023, 07:44 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tracer bullet View Post
If "drivers can go long distances without touching the steering wheel or pedals", are they really driving? Is the Ultimate Driver's Machine really that any longer?
The argument of Theseus' Ship.

It forces you to answer the question; what is driving?

Some would say that "driving" an automatic/DCT isn't really "driving."

It's all about where you draw the line.

Then again, "Ultimate Driving Machine" could simply come to mean that it's the car that drives you the best, not the car that's the best when driven by you.

It's a nutty time we live in for sure.
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      05-30-2023, 08:26 AM   #34
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You probably need to pay a subscription to use those features
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      05-30-2023, 09:20 AM   #35
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The Ultimate Lifestyle Machine.
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      05-30-2023, 09:21 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
IIRC BMW's first foray into EPS was in the E85/86 Z4 (non-M). I know some will disagree, but I think the E85/86 EPS is very, very good. So good that I did not realize my E86 (I bought used from CarMax) did not have hydraulic steering until I went looking for the PS reservoir to check the hydraulic oil level - LOL. Not seeing a pump and reservoir nor motor on the steering rack, I went to RealOEM.com to verify the power steering system. That's when I discovered BMW's E85/86 EPS powers the steering shaft rather than the steering rack. An ingenious solution, I think. Why BMW dropped that design I've never have discovered through internet searches.
We also had EPS in the 1-series and some 3-series models here in Europe from 2006/7 onwards. Many users had no idea it was EPS, except some mentioned the steering weight was lighter than other BMW models.

Your reference to the steering column EPS, not currently being used, a big part of the issue is the torque values required for the heavier models. Over here the early 1 & 3-series models did use the current EPS designs, using the paraxial (APA) racks. The dual pinion (DP) racks are only fitted to models where torque required for fast interactions can cope. It's why models like the M340i in the same series have the APA paraxial EPS. Not really due to packaging constraints, as some have suggested, but APA has a higher torque rating, essential for the model.
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      05-30-2023, 09:51 AM   #37
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If you consider the main competitors.... Mercedes and Audi.... BMW is still quite a bit better of a driver's car in comparison. The industry in general has been slowly moving away from enthusiast focused cars for a loooong time. Yes you have lower volume exceptions (Porsche, Alfa, Cadillac BW) which are arguably better drivers cars, but BMW is a mass market luxury manufacturer and sells the most cars in their segment - so their main focus is to appeal to the masses, not us tiny minority of enthusiasts.

All that being said, they still offer a 500hp manual transmission beast of a car that loves to dance.... so I'm not complaining. If you don't want a car that changes lanes based on your eye movement, then don't buy it or just disable the feature.
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      05-30-2023, 06:20 PM   #38
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Normally I'd shit all over BMW for this, but I've accepted the world has changed drastically in a short period of time, and BMW wants to be ahead of the curve and try to be a trendsetter in design, technology, etc. May as well join the party instead of fighting it.

But from my end I've moved onto other products that align more with my values. The 2 and 3-series still kind of got it, most of the M products including the M2/3/4, X3/4M; but the remainder of BMW's portfolio just aren't driver's cars. Anytime I take out my mom's G05 X5 I despise that floaty thing.
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      05-30-2023, 06:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10" View Post
uhhh won’t be buying any BMW
with this trash in it so whatever!
10” is right again.
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      05-30-2023, 07:03 PM   #40
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"The ultimate gaming machine"? Unfortunately, they have completely changed their views on what real drivers want. But I guess it works, since their last two years' sales have been at or near record highs. I've owned 7 Bimmers, but I'm done. Too many screens, too much money, no sticks (except M2, which is ugly). I guess they'll never care, though.
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      05-30-2023, 10:02 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chihuahua View Post
BMWs biggest problem right now is its complete lack of steering feel. It's really, really bad and was one of the things that separated them from the pack. I don't know how they fix that, but electric steering is the worst thing that's happened to BMW in my opinion.
I wouldn't pit the blame entirely on EPS, it's BMW purposely engineering it the way they did which is which is the problem. Porsche, Alfa Romeo, and Cadillac have all engineered great steering with EPS.

The G 2/3-series are certainly improved over their predecessors but I agree not as tactile and communicative as they need to be. These cars do have a great chassis, powertrain, and relatively accurate steering with decent weighting in my opinion, but the road surface texture and resistance seem purposely muted.

If the Alfa didn't exist I would be driving a 3-series though. Steering aside, it's a pretty solid car to drive, just needs to be pushed to "feel" engaged in the experience.
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      06-04-2023, 05:52 PM   #42
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My 8 is The Ultimate Driving machine. Even BMW SAVs handle better than most other manufacturers’.
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      06-05-2023, 04:48 AM   #43
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This thread is two pages deep because BMW decided to put in tech that saves the driver from having to touch the turn stalk to initiate a lane change. An option that is likely able to be turned off. 2 pages....
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      06-05-2023, 07:27 AM   #44
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They say M3 E92's are the best for handling with hydraulic steering and V8 power so I would award this car with the Ultimate Driving Machine badge.
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