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03-13-2012, 02:56 PM | #1 | |
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Velos Designwerks | Stage 1 Performance Tune for X5 5.0 (4.4L) | Introductory Offer
Dear Members,
Here is the release on our Stage 1 Performance software for the X5 5.0 (4.4L). Please PM for info on introductory pricing. Feel free to ask any other questions here in the thread. Quote:
Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 03-27-2012 at 08:47 AM.. |
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03-19-2012, 11:35 AM | #3 |
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Very interested in tuning my 50i and I've been doing a fair bit of research on all the available options. Of those which are currently available, this one seems to have the lowest numbers...
Is there are reason why you are down 40hp & 40lb-ft to Dinan? Are there hardware or software limitations? Would you be willing to run against a Dinan tuned N63 to compare real world gains? Truly appreciate any info you can provide on the subject!! Thanks! |
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03-19-2012, 12:10 PM | #4 | |
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Thanks for the interest. With the exception of Dinan's "claimed" numbers we are right on par if not a little above other tuners claims. The Dinan claims seem to be a bit exaggerated for this motor/turbo combination (hardware limitation). We have tested at higher boost levels and noticed the turbos simply run out of air, there are other areas that have been addressed in the mapping to yield these results which are shown. The conditions were not the greatest and while we have seen gains of 40-55 rwhp regularly the average is usually around 30-40 depending on the run,etc. There is roughly 15-20whp left on the table since we only rev the car to 6500 rpm on the dyno (on the street it will rev to 6800 rpm with our tune). These gains are not as "impressive" as what you can get out of an X5/6 M but it is still a day and night difference over the stock car. p.s. On some runs the car makes more HP and some times it makes more tq.. Not many people have dynoed an X5/6 5.0 so the numbers can also be "educated guesses" for the most part.. |
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03-19-2012, 12:47 PM | #5 |
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What is the biggest limitation of the 50i compared to the M? Does the 50i have smaller turbos or is it more limited on the intake side? If both are 4.4 V8 TT, you'd think that with the right adjustments you could see similar gains. Being 100 HP down after a tune seems like a lot. I'm not saying Dinan's numbers are more accurate or that yours are low, just trying to piece together the reason for such a jump in HP besides added boost. If you're seeing the turbos running out of air, then I'd think that would be pretty easy to fix. Is there an intake restriction?
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03-19-2012, 12:57 PM | #6 | |
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The biggest limitation would be the smaller turbos for one. Here is a part # for one of the turbos which an be cross referenced and you will notice it is different than the ones used on the M model. 11657590598 - I will remove part # after you have a chance to look it up. The intake manifold/runners are also smaller and more restrictive, part # for cross reference, 11617555663. This is also a big limitation. The bottom end may very well be similar but that is also a completely different part.. When I mention turbos running out of air it is because the turbos themselves are "done" not necessarily because of an intake restriction. In terms of HP/TQ increase the 5.0's do not have the same potential as the M's. |
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03-19-2012, 01:35 PM | #7 |
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Interesting, thanks. But even with maxed out turbos, the engine would still make more power as the revs climb, instead of dropping off or plateauing...that suggests that while the turbos may well be maxed, the real restriction is either air or fuel. What do the AFRs look like after 5250 rpms? Do they drop off or does it stay stochiometric? If the ratio stays up, rather than plummetting, I'd say the restriction is either in the intake, manifold, or cams. that's the only way to explain the drop off of power above 5250 rpm.
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03-19-2012, 03:02 PM | #8 | |
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In regards to running out of fuel, that would only be possible assuming the turbo's were capable of delivering the flow necessary to max out the stock fuel system. BMW chose these turbo's as the goal is to provide instant power delivery and in turn the top end is sacrificed. Larger turbo's would take longer to spool and would make more power up top. For reference compare a stock 335, a tuned 335, 335's with larger turbo's and the new single turbo 335's. The power curve can be improved with good tuning but you can not make a new power curve if the hardware is not capable and in this case these turbo's are not. When these engines are designed, they are done so with a power curve in mind and the turbo chosen is a product of that design. As far as differences between the two motors here is a nice spreadsheet from one of other forums. a/f in stock form and tuned. a/f in tuned form is exactly where you want it to be.. Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 03-19-2012 at 03:38 PM.. |
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03-19-2012, 03:47 PM | #9 |
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Interesting. I think what you are saying about turbo cars is true for torque, which peaks early in a turbo-engine and then plateaus or drops, but I'm pretty sure every engine makes more power with more revs. The power is a function of the torque and revs....power = (revs x torque)/5252. In a turbo engine or even a naturally aspirated one with a flat torque curve, the power goes up linearly with revs. In a supercharged engine (especially centrifugal), the torque also goes up with revs, so the power curve is not linear, as torque and revs are both increasing. The only time I've ever seen a dyno graph plateau so early was when there was a restriction on air, like a restrictor plate on racing cars. Even racing cars with small turbos will make their peak power at high revs...the turbos may be at their max speed and thus max boost early on, but the revs are going up so power still increases.
If you look at the chart showing the differences in the two engines, and then look at a dyno of both a stock X5M and a tuned 50i, there is very little difference until after 4500 rpm or so, where the 50i runs out of breath. Unless the boost is cut at that point, which I doubt, there is a restriction of air flow into the engine that prevents it from making more power.
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03-19-2012, 04:03 PM | #10 | |
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Part Highlighted in Red - Let's discuss the car in question which is the X5/6 5.0 and the X5/6 M... These cars DO NOT make peak HP at redline. The dyno chart above shows a bone stock X6 5.0 as well as tuned one. The restriction (if it can be called such a thing) would be the fact that the turbos are done but also the fact that they simply cannot and are not designed to hold that boost level until redline (once again look at the stock run as well, even a 335 or X5M is the same). In a SC'ed engine the HP goes up with rpm but will run out if the supercharger unit can no longer produce air at x rpm. Part highlighted in green - This is also wrong, look back at previous paragraph. Part highlighted in Orange - The boost on ALL BMW turbo cars begins to taper off at a certain RPM, on factory cars and tuned cars... Part highlighted in Blue - Yes you are right, the turbos are "maxed" out and will not operate efficiently at higher boost levels. X5M - Larger Turbos and LESS restrictive exhaust manifold (twin scroll). This is without even getting into the fact that the X5/6 M has lower compression and makes power meaning the turbos are that much larger.... Let me know if we are getting anywhere. Thanks. |
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03-23-2012, 08:15 AM | #12 |
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Not that the N54 (3.0L TwinTurbo I6) is the benchmark as far as tuning is concerned, but it is a twin turbo configuration and on that platform tuners were quickly at +80rwhp with just the piggyback! With a basic DCI they are at +90rwhp and it goes up from there with intercoolers, downpipes, meth etc.
With the N63 (4.4L TwinTurbo V8) I find it hard to believe that there is only 40whp left on the table before maxing out the turbos. Something doesn't sound right here... |
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03-23-2012, 08:26 AM | #13 | |
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The same exact thing happens with AMG cars and there performance packages, etc.. The numbers above have been proven and broken down to make it clear, I have also made a generous offer to you in terms of trying the tune out so the ball is in your court. This is something we continue to work on and without going into too much detail at this point we are confident this is the most honest power you can get out of this engine. edit: Regarding the gains it is 48 rwhp & 60 lb ft of tq on our stage 1. edit: Heading back to the dyno today for Stage 1.5 a.k.a Maxx Special Best Regards, Last edited by Omar@VelosDesignwerks; 03-23-2012 at 10:14 AM.. |
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03-23-2012, 11:43 AM | #14 | |
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Completely understand what you are saying, however, if the turbos are at their "limit" of airflow with your tune at +58HP then why did BMW release the "M Performance Pkg" which yields +40HP and +30lb-ft from the factory? Would BMW release something that would push the turbos near the absolute limit of airflow? I would like to think that BMW left a very comfortable safety margin in there, which translates to more power available if tuners push the limits. Not trying to discredit what you have stated, but just trying to understand the N63 a little better!! |
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03-23-2012, 12:12 PM | #15 | |
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Basically it's not like each car is tuned to x% of its potential from factory.... Feel free to call me to discuss I can explain a bit more over the phone. Best, |
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03-23-2012, 02:33 PM | #16 | |
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03-23-2012, 03:05 PM | #18 |
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I haven't seen many tuners offer up much for 4.8...usually with a tune they only net a few hp. You'd be better off with an exhaust that might add a few hp and give you better sound in the process, IMO.
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03-23-2012, 04:39 PM | #20 | |
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The idea behind tuning a car is maximizing the car's performance while maintaining the reliability. This is the responsible way to tune a car. While we may be able to squeeze another 1-2 lbs of boost I am positive you will be complaining when you need to purchase new turbos, etc in 8-10 months. I disagree with your statement regarding why people tune their cars and the responsibilities they are willing to take. A responsible tuner will never put a client's car in jeopardy whether it is a ~450 HP M3 or a ~700 HP AMG Bi turbo. Yes Limits are there for a reason but it is a tuners job to determine what is and isn't "safe". I respect your position and appreciate you questions, comments, and participation in this discussion because I think a lot of useful information was shared. We will continue working on this and all our other tunes and offering these upgrades to our clients when they become available. Best Regards, |
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03-23-2012, 07:10 PM | #21 | |
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Last edited by kokovovoru; 03-23-2012 at 07:19 PM.. |
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03-23-2012, 10:05 PM | #22 | ||
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I would hope that people who decide to tune a car educate themselves before hand and realize that in an effort to extract more power, they may be increasing their risks and possibly decreasing the longevity of their engine. Obviously no one tunes their car so they can spend every other week at a service center getting repairs done, but to say that there are no risks associated with tuning an engine to run more boost, higher redline, etc, is being naive. Any reputable tuner will have spent countless hours testing things before releasing them to the public, but that does not preclude issues from occurring somewhere down the line and people that purchase these components should understand that. Most tuners have a very well written "Disclaimer" somewhere which addresses this very issue. If however, something is not thoroughly tested or poorly designed and puts a customer's car in "jeopardy," then that is just negligence on the part of the tuner. Obviously, the goal is to extract the most power out of a car while balancing the risks associated with that. Most tuners will try to explore the limits of each engine before deciding to bring things back down to safe levels. Quote:
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