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      08-05-2020, 04:01 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by scoobysaurus View Post
Another anology is the quartz crisis and its impact in legacy swiss watch manufacturers. Eventually quartz watches flooded the market with cheaper, more accurate and easier to maintain timepieces. Today the only swiss watchmakers that survive are the ones that stuck to their guns sell their watches at a premium as luxury status symbols for the most part. Once cheap electric cars flood the mainstream market and with luxury features being ubiquitous these days, it'll be interesting to see how the legacy upscale car manufacturers handle the electric crisis - do they go with the flow and reinvent themselves like Omega, stick to their guns and become powerhouses like Rolex, introduce something completely new to reinvigorate the product/market like Audemars Piguet, or go the way of the dodo like hundreds of other swiss manufactures did.
Honestly, makers like BMW need to pull back and re-focus themselves where they still have advantages while continuing to adapt to the future. They need a solid BEV strategy, but they also need ICE in some form (like PHEV) as well.

BUT they need to refocus luxury service as a core component of what they offer as well which will require some retooling of their dealer network. Tesla has a lot of mindshare that is really helping them to move cars currently, but they have serious quality and service issues that leave an opening for luxury car makers to still make an inroad. If Tesla closes those holes then luxury makers will be in a real tight place (and they will try as they look to expand the share of the pie they consume).
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      08-05-2020, 06:26 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by scoobysaurus View Post
Another anology is the quartz crisis and its impact in legacy swiss watch manufacturers. Eventually quartz watches flooded the market with cheaper, more accurate and easier to maintain timepieces. Today the only swiss watchmakers that survive are the ones that stuck to their guns sell their watches at a premium as luxury status symbols for the most part. Once cheap electric cars flood the mainstream market and with luxury features being ubiquitous these days, it'll be interesting to see how the legacy upscale car manufacturers handle the electric crisis - do they go with the flow and reinvent themselves like Omega, stick to their guns and become powerhouses like Rolex, introduce something completely new to reinvigorate the product/market like Audemars Piguet, or go the way of the dodo like hundreds of other swiss manufactures did.
Well Omega is under Swatch Group so maybe that's a better analogy.
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      08-05-2020, 06:44 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Honestly, makers like BMW need to pull back and re-focus themselves where they still have advantages while continuing to adapt to the future. They need a solid BEV strategy, but they also need ICE in some form (like PHEV) as well.

BUT they need to refocus luxury service as a core component of what they offer as well which will require some retooling of their dealer network. Tesla has a lot of mindshare that is really helping them to move cars currently, but they have serious quality and service issues that leave an opening for luxury car makers to still make an inroad. If Tesla closes those holes then luxury makers will be in a real tight place (and they will try as they look to expand the share of the pie they consume).
This is not aimed directly at you but I really want to know why people think BMW is not focusing on an electric future. Everything BMW has done with regards to hybrid/electric vehicles is for this alone. Everyone is looking at these vehicles individually and thinking "that's all BMW has got or can come up with". No, these are all small steps towards EV vehicles - BMWi, BMW e vehicles/hybrid vehicles are all done to gain real-world information.

People like giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt but if you ask me, it's a lot easier for brands like BMW, Mercedes and Audi to crack that EV code than it is for Tesla to offer vehicles that rival the quality of the Germans.

If BMW/Audi/Mercedes all had a true Model 3 or Model S competitor, how many would still pick Tesla? If the Taycan was more affordable, would Tesla even be a choice?
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      08-05-2020, 07:01 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Bmwtechgeek View Post
BMW makes too many cars: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, X1, X2, X3, X4, X5, X6, X7, etc. So many places to trim the fat.
Cut the even Xs
And all FWD Transverse layout cars.
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      08-05-2020, 08:10 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
LOL are there really people that are trying to pin this on EV strategy? This has absolutely nothing to do with EV's, grilles, number or models, etc and everything to do with an already softening marked continuing from 2019 and first and foremost a global pandemic. The theories are amusing to read and good for a laugh but nonetheless totally off base.
That is the story for this particular quarter. However, there is no denying Tesla is eating into their customer base. BMW has nothing exciting outside of M cars. The demand for their products will continue to weaken. If they had a product that people were actually excited about they could have posted a profit.
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      08-05-2020, 08:21 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
This is not aimed directly at you but I really want to know why people think BMW is not focusing on an electric future. Everything BMW has done with regards to hybrid/electric vehicles is for this alone. Everyone is looking at these vehicles individually and thinking "that's all BMW has got or can come up with". No, these are all small steps towards EV vehicles - BMWi, BMW e vehicles/hybrid vehicles are all done to gain real-world information.

People like giving Tesla the benefit of the doubt but if you ask me, it's a lot easier for brands like BMW, Mercedes and Audi to crack that EV code than it is for Tesla to offer vehicles that rival the quality of the Germans.

If BMW/Audi/Mercedes all had a true Model 3 or Model S competitor, how many would still pick Tesla? If the Taycan was more affordable, would Tesla even be a choice?
The Model S came out SO long ago. Why would you think it's easier to figure out a completely new powertrain technology and vehicle layout than how to get rid of panel gaps? The Model S came out April 2009, which is a little over 11 years ago, and it will still run circles around any BMW EV coming soon. Tesla quality is probably "good enough" anyway for the most part since owners continue to be overwhelmingly positive in surveys about their experiences.

Tesla is a software company and the automotive experience is defined by software now. BMW is still 10 years behind in this regard as well. Porsche has matched their drivetrain, but will their software stack age well? Will they update it and add features OTA? There's also no good charging network. At least give them credit for seeing that the way to compete is to create an EV on a dedicated platform.

I am still an M car customer, but when it comes to the regular BMWs, I fail to see how BMW is going to fend Tesla off with this half-hearted strategy.
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      08-05-2020, 08:24 PM   #29
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This is expected during this economy there's no way to get around it. I think this opens the door to cutting some of the fat in the lineup.
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      08-05-2020, 08:30 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
That is the story for this particular quarter. However, there is no denying Tesla is eating into their customer base. BMW has nothing exciting outside of M cars. The demand for their products will continue to weaken. If they had a product that people were actually excited about they could have posted a profit.
I think BMW has a very strong portfolio, but at the end of the day they are a very high volume manufacturer so it's expected for them to get reemed during this economy. Tesla is small and has so much room to grow globally. With that being said, Tesla has definitely cut into BMW over the years.

In an ideal world for me, BMW would just say F it to chasing sales and be content being a smaller manufacturer producing driver-oriented cars like they used to.
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      08-05-2020, 08:38 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
I think BMW has a very strong portfolio, but at the end of the day they are a very high volume manufacturer so it's expected for them to get reemed during this economy. Tesla is small and has so much room to grow globally. With that being said, Tesla has definitely cut into BMW over the years.

In an ideal world for me, BMW would just say F it to chasing sales and be content being a smaller manufacturer producing driver-oriented cars like they used to.
I agree, but think they have to do better to stay on top of EV and autonomy. Their target demographic is going extinct and long-term I don't know how they will adapt if they aren't serious about change now.
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      08-05-2020, 08:39 PM   #32
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Maybe it's the front grilles....perhaps BMW was in a giant sucking vortex leading all grille designs into the (LCCS) Lexus Cow Catcher System....Name:  Lexus.jpg
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      08-05-2020, 08:46 PM   #33
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Oh wow, this pandemic really has a big impact on BMW sale. A lot of auto brands have declared a loss in sale, but this one is the worst.
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      08-05-2020, 08:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris719 View Post
The Model S came out SO long ago. Why would you think it's easier to figure out a completely new powertrain technology and vehicle layout than how to get rid of panel gaps? The Model S came out April 2009, which is a little over 11 years ago, and it will still run circles around any BMW EV coming soon. Tesla quality is probably "good enough" anyway for the most part since owners continue to be overwhelmingly positive in surveys about their experiences.

Tesla is a software company and the automotive experience is defined by software now. BMW is still 10 years behind in this regard as well. Porsche has matched their drivetrain, but will their software stack age well? Will they update it and add features OTA? There's also no good charging network. At least give them credit for seeing that the way to compete is to create an EV on a dedicated platform.

I am still an M car customer, but when it comes to the regular BMWs, I fail to see how BMW is going to fend Tesla off with this half-hearted strategy.
I didn't mean Model S literally. The point I was trying to make was eventually, the market is going to be flooded with EV's where it's going to be the norm and we're going to get back to where it is today - brand power. Tesla deserves a lot of respect for what they're doing in the space, but they're playing by themselves. If they really wanted to dominate the entire automotive industry, they would have fixed their QC a long time ago but for whatever reason, they haven't.

I could be wrong/right, who knows, but your skepticism in Germany's automotive brain trust on figuring out a competitive EV is the same skepticism I have of Tesla fixing their QC issues and providing a final product as refined as the Germans. Just enough doesn't cut it - ask Cadillac.

Yes the future is EV. Tesla is the now because they're the only player, but once EVs are common and the market is flooded with them, will they have the brand power the German's have built for decades? So back to my original question, once everyone has an EV, is Tesla the easy choice or will people go back to the badge?

I have many friends and co-workers who are in Tesla's and like them for what it is - but if any of the Germans came out with something on par, they would leave Tesla in a heartbeat. Whether or not others share the same feelings who knows, like everything else, you can remain top dog for so long before everyone catches up.
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      08-05-2020, 09:27 PM   #35
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I agree, but think they have to do better to stay on top of EV and autonomy. Their target demographic is going extinct and long-term I don't know how they will adapt if they aren't serious about change now.
Yeah...unfortunately the world has changed. Due to economic and political/social factors, the generational view on automobiles has shifted drastically. Very few people value a proper motor, engaging handling/steering, light weight, etc. anymore. Tech and environmental friendliness is in, all that other stuff is out. I can't imagine the irony of the "ultimate driving machine" driving itself, having one gear, no Inline 6, etc. but BMW really has no choice.
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      08-05-2020, 11:15 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls View Post
I have many friends and co-workers who are in Tesla's and like them for what it is - but if any of the Germans came out with something on par, they would leave Tesla in a heartbeat. Whether or not others share the same feelings who knows, like everything else, you can remain top dog for so long before everyone catches up.
This is so correct of the interpretation of so many buyers of Ev's atm, Tesla is almost the only EV that you can choose if you want that form of performance "small" form factor car the Model 3 but the quality issues of Tesla has been an on going issue for a while now although they are getting better by the day, but if BMW still doesn't adapt to the new market that is coming their way they will be left behind sens the future of cars ain't ICE engines to many people have a hard time accepting this fact.

I was in between when i was choosing a car it was the I3s or the Model 3, now the most obvious choice was to go with the Model 3 due to literately everything. But i just didn't dare to go with a first generation Model 3 due to some quality thoughts i had when reading the Tesla forums. And living in Sweden and not the west coast of US i had my thoughts regarding the cars build quality in terms of how it would handle the road salt, grime and dirt during the winter here.

While BMW has been making cars for the EU market for a long time and i believed that BMWs cars were more adapted to the Swedish climate then Tesla. And i have seen some weird issues with Models 3 in Sweden caused by the winters here everything from freezing door handles to rust on brand new cars. So my initial thoughts were correct of the Model 3 but i just can't have a car that performs well during Spring-Autum then having to have it in the Garage i need a year round car.
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      08-06-2020, 01:16 AM   #37
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This is so correct of the interpretation of so many buyers of Ev's atm, Tesla is almost the only EV that you can choose if you want that form of performance "small" form factor car the Model 3 but the quality issues of Tesla has been an on going issue for a while now although they are getting better by the day, but if BMW still doesn't adapt to the new market that is coming their way they will be left behind sens the future of cars ain't ICE engines to many people have a hard time accepting this fact.

I was in between when i was choosing a car it was the I3s or the Model 3, now the most obvious choice was to go with the Model 3 due to literately everything. But i just didn't dare to go with a first generation Model 3 due to some quality thoughts i had when reading the Tesla forums. And living in Sweden and not the west coast of US i had my thoughts regarding the cars build quality in terms of how it would handle the road salt, grime and dirt during the winter here.

While BMW has been making cars for the EU market for a long time and i believed that BMWs cars were more adapted to the Swedish climate then Tesla. And i have seen some weird issues with Models 3 in Sweden caused by the winters here everything from freezing door handles to rust on brand new cars. So my initial thoughts were correct of the Model 3 but i just can't have a car that performs well during Spring-Autum then having to have it in the Garage i need a year round car.
BMW should never have started on these FWD platforms. If the FWD platforms would be immediately killed and replaced with EVs on dedicated platforms, they could actually be fun then with good torque and low center of gravity. My concern with BMW is this dual-purpose architecture. It seems like it's going to compromise both the ICE version and EV versions of the cars. I think BMW *could* build a great EV, but they seem to not want to.
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      08-06-2020, 02:43 AM   #38
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Perfect timing for introducing the hideous grilled 4 series and g80 M3. Good luck BMW
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      08-06-2020, 05:41 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by 1margarette View Post
Oh wow, this pandemic really has a big impact on BMW sale. A lot of auto brands have declared a loss in sale, but this one is the worst.
How do you mean "the worst"? As much as I know their global numbers for the first 2 quarters in 2020 are still better than Mercedes or many other manufacturers.
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      08-06-2020, 07:22 AM   #40
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I feel like this is because of the pandemic and long plant shutdowns along with job uncertainty and job losses. Im sure that lots of potential buyers either canceled or put off buying cars. As far as electric vehicles I'm sure they are going to be more prevalent in the future, for me though I have zero interest.
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      08-06-2020, 08:53 AM   #41
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Perfect timing for introducing the hideous grilled 4 series and g80 M3. Good luck BMW
At least the M3/M4 are products that have strong demand behind them. They will still sell lots of them. More than I can say for a lot of the product line.
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      08-06-2020, 09:01 AM   #42
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Oh wow, this pandemic really has a big impact on BMW sale. A lot of auto brands have declared a loss in sale, but this one is the worst.
Yeah things aren't looking so good, they lost an extra 14% of sales compared to Mercedes in the first half of the year, and now the gap has widened further between the two brands despite BMW successfully passing MB last year in US Sales.

Found this article to be very interesting https://www.fool.com/amp/investing/2...s-q2-2020.aspx
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      08-06-2020, 10:50 AM   #43
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I've read yesterday that Porsche and BMW are the only German manufacturers which still had a profit in the first half of the year. Mercedes had a loss of 1.7 billion euros, although they obviously sold more cars.
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      08-06-2020, 11:06 AM   #44
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I've read yesterday that Porsche and BMW are the only German manufacturers which still had a profit in the first half of the year. Mercedes had a loss of 1.7 billion euros, although they obviously sold more cars.
Yes, but also Daimler is a much larger company as a whole, but regardless these will be trying times for all brands.
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