Cheating in the NFL has neglible consequences

[Efthreeoh]

Can anyone tell me exactly how a football is better when inflated at 11.5 PSI vs. 12.5 PSI?

[1MOREMOD]

Makes it easier for a monkey to f*€k

[Squddie]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Can anyone tell me exactly how a football is better when inflated at 11.5 PSI vs. 12.5 PSI?

It is a lot easier to catch.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by Squddie

It is a lot easier to catch.

...because it's easier to grip and has less bounce. It's really about physics, specifically Newton's third law of motion. It's probably easiest to think of that law in terms of car crashes, for example, but it's every bit as applicable to a receiver catching a ball.

It's also easier to control it when throwing it because less pressure inside the ball allows one to get a better grip (friction) on it. The grip benefits manifest themselves most in wet conditions.

All the best.

[1MOREMOD]

Would think it would take distance and accuracy off the throw though to some small extent.

[Flying Ace]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Makes it easier for a monkey to f*€k

Yes, I once saw a video about this....

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tony20009

...because it's easier to grip and has less bounce. It's really about physics, specifically Newton's third law of motion. It's probably easiest to think of that law in terms of car crashes, for example, but it's every bit as applicable to a receiver catching a ball.

It's also easier to control it when throwing it because less pressure inside the ball allows one to get a better grip (friction) on it. The grip benefits manifest themselves most in wet conditions.

All the best.

So is it an elastic or inelastic collision?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by 1MOREMOD

Would think it would take distance and accuracy off the throw though to some small extent.

• http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/sup...tballs-n290466
• http://www.livescience.com/49539-def...-pressure.html
• http://www.science20.com/the_convers...ategate-152525

All the best.

[StatenEye]

Truly the NFL has become a joke. Not sure if it's any better then WWE in regards to an actual fair competition at this point. What the Pats did here was criminal and someone should do jail time. Tons of money is at stake on these games, in Vegas, sales and in advertising. NE has manipulated the games and changed the outcome of many matches through illegal means. Many people paid for themselves and their families to attend Patriot games which were effected by cheating. Times like this makes me wish the NFL had a 2nd and 3rd division to relegate teams to - obviously you cant do that in a salary cap league but it would be nice. Spy-gate and deflate-gate show that Bill and Tom have no respect for the league... why have they not received lifetime bans? If they cheated in in these two ways they were caught on.. they must be cheating in other ways also, no? How is what they done not worse than what Pete Rose did in baseball? As a former NCAA D1 athlete I would be deeply disgusted if my team were to cheat to win a match and i'm not sure I can live with losing a NCAA tournament match and later finding out the team we lost to cheated.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by StatenEye 535i

Truly the NFL has become a joke. Not sure if it's any better then WWE in regards to an actual fair competition at this point. What the Pats did here was criminal and someone should do jail time. Tons of money is at stake on these games, in Vegas, sales and in advertising. NE has manipulated the games and changed the outcome of many matches through illegal means. Many people paid for themselves and their families to attend Patriot games which were effected by cheating. Times like this makes me wish the NFL had a 2nd and 3rd division to relegate teams to - obviously you cant do that in a salary cap league but it would be nice. Spy-gate and deflate-gate show that Bill and Tom have no respect for the league... why have they not received lifetime bans? If they cheated in in these two ways they were caught on.. they must be cheating in other ways also, no? How is what they done not worse than what Pete Rose did in baseball? As a former NCAA D1 athlete I would be deeply disgusted if my team were to cheat to win a match and i'm not sure I can live with losing a NCAA tournament match and later finding out the team we lost to cheated.

Red:
What would be the charge? Unethical, yes. Criminal? I don't think so, or more accurately, I haven't seen evidence that supports that claim.

Blue:
No. In spite of however theoretically plausible it might be that the parties involved have cheated in other ways, that they have/do in isn't a logical conclusion one can draw for the fact that they cheated re: ball inflation. I'm certainly willing to reprimand them and decry specific act(s) of cheating of which I'm aware, but I'm also willing to be fair, even to those whom I can plainly see don't play fair. That's part of what makes my character better than theirs, and I'm about to become one of their ilk by being unfair, even to they who probably don't deserve my equanimity. You can if you want, but I will not.

All the best.

[StatenEye]

Originally Posted by tony20009

Red:
What would be the charge? Unethical, yes. Criminal? I don't think so, or more accurately, I haven't seen evidence that supports that claim.

Blue:
No. In spite of however theoretically plausible it might be that the parties involved have cheated in other ways, that they have/do in isn't a logical conclusion one can draw for the fact that they cheated re: ball inflation. I'm certainly willing to reprimand them and decry specific act(s) of cheating of which I'm aware, but I'm also willing to be fair, even to those whom I can plainly see don't play fair. That's part of what makes my character better than theirs, and I'm about to become one of their ilk by being unfair, even to they who probably don't deserve my equanimity. You can if you want, but I will not.

All the best.

You do make very good points but I would day in response.

Red;
Firstly, spygate was lied about, they never were summoned to court and evidence was destroyed by the NFL. As for the charges; I would think defrauding the public should constitute criminal charges. Viewers are legally betting, paying for tickets and watching the advertisements of an event which is thought to be and is represented by the NFL as fair. Blatantly cheating to manipulate the outcome of a public events which gross billion's of $revenue per annum, should constitute fraud. Criminal prosecution was used in the past on athletes who have altered their performance and as a result the outcome of games. Non sports example; If Coca-cola were to represent their cola product as cocaine free to gain the trust and money of users and an employee began to infuse cocaine into the mixture, would their be grounds for criminal action against said employee and corporation by the end users? I would think so.

Blue;

I agree, the basis for that statement was purely circumstantial.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by StatenEye 535i

You do make very good points but I would day in response.

Red;
Firstly, spygate was lied about, they never were summoned to court and evidence was destroyed by the NFL. As for the charges; I would think defrauding the public should constitute criminal charges. Viewers are legally betting, paying for tickets and watching the advertisements of an event which is thought to be and is represented by the NFL as fair. Blatantly cheating to manipulate the outcome of a public events which gross billion's of $revenue per annum, should constitute fraud. Criminal prosecution was used in the past on athletes who have altered their performance and as a result the outcome of games. Non sports example; If Coca-cola were to represent their cola product as cocaine free to gain the trust and money of users and an employee began to infuse cocaine into the mixture, would their be grounds for criminal action against said employee and corporation by the end users? I would think so.

Blue;

I agree, the basis for that statement was purely circumstantial.

What does spygate have to do with ballgate? Ballgate is the only thing I was writing about in my posts. (I didn't realize by "criminal" you meant spygate. I thought you were referring to ballgate.)

Spygate occurred some four years prior to ballgate. I don't have any opinion re: spygate because I don't know any more about it beyond roughly when it occurred. I don't actually know what events that term describes.

Note:
I didn't until two days ago even know of spygate re: football. When I first saw the term, I thought it might have had something to do with Valerie Plame. That I had no clue of spygate's meaning regarding NFL football and the Patriots is one indicator of just how little interest I have in professional football when the Redskins aren't contenders and/or involved.

I only learned of deflategate because I was in D.C. the day the NFL announced its penalties for the Patriots and the story about it came onto the news radio station I had on in the car. But for that, the whole matter of deflategate would have never made it onto my radar, so to speak.

All the best.

[StatenEye]

Originally Posted by tony20009

What does spygate have to do with ballgate? Ballgate is the only thing I was writing about in my posts. (I didn't realize by "criminal" you meant spygate. I thought you were referring to ballgate.)

Spygate occurred some four years prior to ballgate. I don't have any opinion re: spygate because I don't know any more about it beyond roughly when it occurred. I don't actually know what events that term describes.

Note:
I didn't until two days ago even know of spygate re: football. When I first saw the term, I thought it might have had something to do with Valerie Plame. That I had no clue of spygate's meaning regarding NFL football and the Patriots is one indicator of just how little interest I have in professional football when the Redskins aren't contenders and/or involved.

I only learned of deflategate because I was in D.C. the day the NFL announced its penalties for the Patriots and the story about it came onto the news radio station I had on in the car. But for that, the whole matter of deflategate would have never made it onto my radar, so to speak.

All the best.

It's all good, didn't mean to get so serious.

I must confess I have a sore spot for cheaters from NE. When playing a men's soccer match against Boston College a team mate of mine took a shot with 3 seconds, or so, left on the clock. The defender jumped and blocked the ball with his hands. Ref claimed there was nothing he could do since the horn sounded. Game ended 1 - 2, I believe. College soccer doesn't have stoppage time. One of the most empty feelings if my career, and I'll never forget the smug looks on their faces. Plus I'm from NY so I naturally have ill feelings towards NE.

[infamousdiz]

Originally Posted by StatenEye 535i

Truly the NFL has become a joke. Not sure if it's any better then WWE in regards to an actual fair competition at this point. What the Pats did here was criminal and someone should do jail time. Tons of money is at stake on these games, in Vegas, sales and in advertising. NE has manipulated the games and changed the outcome of many matches through illegal means. Many people paid for themselves and their families to attend Patriot games which were effected by cheating. Times like this makes me wish the NFL had a 2nd and 3rd division to relegate teams to - obviously you cant do that in a salary cap league but it would be nice. Spy-gate and deflate-gate show that Bill and Tom have no respect for the league... why have they not received lifetime bans? If they cheated in in these two ways they were caught on.. they must be cheating in other ways also, no? How is what they done not worse than what Pete Rose did in baseball? As a former NCAA D1 athlete I would be deeply disgusted if my team were to cheat to win a match and i'm not sure I can live with losing a NCAA tournament match and later finding out the team we lost to cheated.

You worry about the NFL and want someone to go to jail but in the financial collapse that destroyed many many lives no one was held accountable. how many people offed themselves because of hardships and financial ruined. Worrying about how tom likes the football little softer, yeah they helped him put up 28 in the second half...while the real criminals sell you annuities and are STILL IN POWER....Ect ect I could go on and on

And lets be real here you are a fan of either the giants or more than likely the awful jets. Lots of butt hurt to go around.

If there was one mistake on your taxes or exaggeration of the numbers to federal prison you should go. Maybe you bought something online and never reported it to your Tax and Tax again state of NY...Jail.. If we found any discrepancy's I am going back 20 years...Prison...A little outrageous, no?

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by StatenEye 535i

It's all good, didn't mean to get so serious.

I must confess I have a sore spot for cheaters from NE. When playing a men's soccer match against Boston College a team mate of mine took a shot with 3 seconds, or so, left on the clock. The defender jumped and blocked the ball with his hands. Ref claimed there was nothing he could do since the horn sounded. Game ended 1 - 2, I believe. College soccer doesn't have stoppage time. One of the most empty feelings if my career, and I'll never forget the smug looks on their faces. Plus I'm from NY so I naturally have ill feelings towards NE.

I have to be honest. From where cheaters hail doesn't alter how I feel about their cheating ways. They could as well be from the Moon and I'd feel the same way.

All the best.

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by infamousdiz

You worry about the NFL and want someone to go to jail but in the financial collapse that destroyed many many lives no one was held accountable. how many people offed themselves because of hardships and financial ruined. Worrying about how tom likes the football little softer, yeah they helped him put up 28 in the second half...while the real criminals sell you annuities and are STILL IN POWER....Ect ect I could go on and on

And lets be real here you are a fan of either the giants or more than likely the awful jets. Lots of butt hurt to go around.

If there was one mistake on your taxes or exaggeration of the numbers to federal prison you should go. Maybe you bought something online and never reported it to your Tax and Tax again state of NY...Jail.. If we found any discrepancy's I am going back 20 years...Prison...A little outrageous, no?

The person to whom you specifically replied may have a different view than I, but below is my view.

Red:
There is no question in my mind that the acts that led to the 2008 financial crisis had to have been carried out, at least in part, with total disregard for the ethics of what the key players were doing. That no several people -- other than the shareholders of the companies that went belly up -- were penalized personally is at least equally, if not more so, deserving to be decried. The thing is that what happened there strikes me as both ethically/morally wrong as well as being criminal. The matter of ballgate doesn't strike me as criminal in anyway.

Blue:
Well, that people committed suicide because they were financially ruined cannot, IMO, be blamed on anyone else. Literally millions of people live in poverty or near poverty and don't kill themselves over it. I'm sure those folks who killed themselves may have been embarrassed and devastated, but killing oneself over money...that's crazy. Literally. At the end of the day, only oneself can be held accountable for one's suicide, no matter why one did it. (I suppose if someone coerces one to kill oneself as the alternative to being killed, that may be an exception, but does stuff like that really happen outside of popular fiction? BTW, that's a rhetorical question.)

Green:
There's a very significant difference between cheating on one's taxes and what the Patriots did in ballgate. The difference is that Patriots literally agreed to play the game of football in accordance with the rules set forth by the NFL, and they did this publicly before literally millions of people. (See PDF page 4 here: https://secure.ethicspoint.com/domai...liancePlan.pdf)

There is, of course, another difference. When an individual is found guilty of tax fraud, the penalties are quite often at a minimum financially devastating, adversely life changing if you will, to the party(s) involved. There's no such quality to the penalties levied against Mr. Brady or the Patriots team. One million dollars to a $2.5B business is a small enough sum that it can merely be considered "the cost of doing business," particularly if the cheating yielded its intended results. Similarly, given the size of Mr. Brady's salary, he can absolutely sit out four games and see little if not no change in his way of life.

I'm not in a position to comment on whether the penalties the government assigns to tax cheats are too great and that's not in the scope of this thread. I absolutely feel that Mssrs. Brady and Kraft got off very easy given the example they put before millions of fans, give the millions of people to whom they are role models. I blame the NFL leadership for a share of the the latter part of that. They should be no less ashamed of themselves for levying such light penalties than should Mr. Brady and his cronies for having committed the act in the first place.

All the best.

[SheaButter]

Originally Posted by eric@helix

The New England guy defends the cheating and all of the rest are outraged. Surprised? The NFL has no integrity, so what did you expect? Goodell and NFL corporate are stooges for the owners, and Kraft is the alpha owner, Brady is the biggest brand within the league. I was actually impressed with the severity of the penalty based upon who cheated. Can you imagine what the punishment would be if it had been Michael Vick who was caught cheating?

Feed Vick to the dogs. There is a special place in hell for people like him. As for the Pats... Business is business, and the NFL cares more about publicity than actually doing what's right. I can only IMAGINE what their voting meetings look like. Probably a dart board with random punishments on it.

[ska///235i]

All QBs have break the rules on their balls...its 1 psi less not 15 lol

The Media made this into a world story.

Move on, the Pats has been cheating for the pass 11 years and ppl just found out? Comon!

TB is coming out this year with another great season fueled by all this nonsense...

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

All QBs have break the rules on their balls...its 1 psi less not 15 lol

The Media made this into a world story.

Move on, the Pats has been cheating for the pass 11 years and ppl just found out? Comon!

TB is coming out this year with another great season fueled by all this nonsense...

Red:
Were there 15 fewer pounds in the ball, the quarterback would be throwing something more akin to a elliptical pancake than a ball of any sort.

That said, I'm hoping that your comment about the extent of the under inflation is but a poorly developed way of expressing that you think the minor amount of missing air pressure is such that folks should overlook the infraction. To that end, I agree it was a relatively minor the act, but it's a minor act that has the potential to have a major impact, at least according to at least one other professional quarterback ( (Former Colts QB Jack Trudeau on DeflateGate: 'You would know'). The bigger issue, in my mind at least for I didn't and don't care who won/wins a football game, is that it was an act perpetrated deliberately on the sly, as is steroid use and "secret shoes."

My beef isn't with how wily the perpetrators were, it's that they acted on their dishonorable ideas and that not one soul in the Patriots organization who wasn't involved, and who was in a position to have noticed, bothered to speak up. From what I can tell, any number of individuals, especially Mr. Brady, could have easily said, "Hey, this/these balls seems to have lost some air. Can we take a break to reinflate them?"

What the Patriots employees did was willful and intended to have an immediate and direct impact on a specific NFL game wherein Mr. Brady and the other New England team members stood to gain as a result. Moreover, the ball incident was one of collusion among several individuals. Lastly, the ball deflation/under inflation was an act that betrayed -- in fact and in appearance -- the trust others, the league managers, referees, legal book makers, and fans among others, had placed in the team and its members to conduct themselves in accordance with the stated rules of the game. A game, a thing upon which nothing of significance depends.

Blue:
And well that they did.

Ethics and Morals -- The Business of Football side:
Having and adhering to an honorable code of ethics and morals is free. Do we only learn right from wrong, only learn to eschew the appearance of impropriety in our actions, when we reach a certain income level? I have seen ample evidence from my experience mentoring low income young people (and interacting with their parents) that poverty is no impediment to one's knowing right from wrong. I suspect I'm not alone.

If there be a burden to bear, it's the one we as a society, as fans, have in in refusing to take such a callous attitude to what's wrong about the culture in which we live. The kind of low ethical standards shown by members of the Patriots organization will persist and spread as long as the rest of us simply accept it as "that's the way it is" rather that demanding that it when it is, it is reprehensible and will carry with it penalties commensurate with far more materially -- physically and/or monetarily serious infractions.

Why place such a high penalty on ethical/moral turpitude? Because the vast majority of wrong doing begins with flawed ethics and morals. When the impact of ignoring their ethics over small things is high, it stands to reason that the impact in circumstances of broader scope will be higher. Thus people become increasingly reticent about committing small infractions, and even more so re: larger ones.

I don't seriously think many people commit acts based on premeditated ethical/moral lapses. I think that what happens in most cases is that folks encounter "opportunities" whereby if they simply ignore their standards for that moment, they profit and "all will be well with the world," so to speak. Nobody will be the wiser, so why not? That is the thinking I feel takes place in folks' minds.

The problem with acts such as the ball deflation ones, is that unlike one's stealing a defined sum of money from me, or assaulting me, proving causality is very hard. Each of us is presumed to be on our best honor in situations like the Patriots' AFC Championship game. The problem with taking a light-handed penal approach as was taken with the Patriots is that it puts people in the position of evaluating the risk and penalty profile of any given act and determining what they'll forgo if they get caught.

In the case of the penalties assigned to Mr. Brady and the Patriots team, the penalties tacitly say that where cheating and its perpetrators is ambiguous and/or vaguely attributable re: what drove it to occur, the penalty, say, for the team is $1M. Now, as the owner of a $2.5B+ business, the obvious question is, "Can we afford to spend $1M if deflating a ball will allow us to win the AFC championship and necessarily yield the profits and benefits that come from having done so?" Now I don't know about you, but I doubt there is a $100M+ business on the planet that cannot afford to spend $1M in order to gain the opportunity to claim something close to $100M. (How Much Is Winning Super Bowl Worth? | ThePostGame -- even the speaker in that video refers to the profits as "icing," but make no mistake, $100M is "icing" any business owner will sooner take than let go, especially for a "measly" $1M...remember, we're talking about businesses, not individuals.)

Ethics and Morals -- The personal side:
I hold sports players (and teams) to a higher standard of ethics than I might, say, ostensibly reformed convicts. Well, actually, it's not that the standard of behavior is any higher, but rather what I feel justified in expecting that the standard be upheld by sports players vs. former convicts.

Why do I feel more rigid expectations are justified? Well, in large measure because every single NFL player is very well compensated. Even the lowest draft picks earn a very livable salary. I mean really, if one can't find a way to happily and honestly exist on $420K (NFL rookie contracts have become simpler, faster to sign after new CBA | The MMQB with Peter King) -- and that's up nearly $100K from 2010's $325K minimum (did anyone you know get ~$100K routine pay raise over the course of four years?) -- one has a very big problem. That folks earning the astronomical sums that Mr. Brady does would deign to allow so much as the appearance of having cheated mar their reputation is unconscionable and, quite frankly, pathetic. Indeed, if $420K/year to play a game (work) for approximately five months a year, to say nothing of millions per year, isn't enough to inspire one to behave with integrity, one doesn't deserve to play the game.
-- http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-sh...140800306.html
-- How to Become an NFL Player - An Interview with Duane Brown | The Art of Manliness
-- http://www.newsday.com/sports/footba...-nfl-1.9218497

Well, forgive me, but their work day doesn't seem any more onerous than that of a great many professionals who earn similar sums and have to work the same hours for all 12 months of the year. Ask your favorite auditor or tax accountant what their hours are like during "busy season." Even outside of "busy season," a 50-60 hour week isn't uncommon. The biggest difference, aside from the sheer quantity of hours, between pro sports players and professionals in other disciplines work schedules is that upon reaching the senior levels of a large partnership, one has considerably control and flexibility over how and when one uses ones time to get the work done than one has at lower levels. That said, partners/principals are owners, personally liable for their firm's success and failure, not employees, so that's not all that surprising. (There had better be more perqs to becoming a partner than just a higher income, otherwise why bother? LOL Most any partner is more than adequately qualified to find other work that pays equally well.)

All the best.

[ska///235i]

Wow

Ok, this is exactly what I mean...everyone is making a big deal out of it because ia the New England Patriots

Remember when ODB (obeckham jr) made that awesome catch and everyone was like OMFG, Wow, unbelieveable...if that was caught by a Pats player everyone would say that they cheated with sticky gloves


4 superbowl rings
2001 11-5 (1st)
2002 9-7 (2nd)
2003 14-2 (1st)
2004 14-2 (1st)
2005 10-6 (1st)
2006 12-4 (1st)
2007 16-0 (1st)
2008 11-5 (2nd)
2009 10-6 (1st)
2010 14-2 (1st)
2011 13-3 (1st)
2012 12-4 (1st)
2013 12-4 (1st)
2014 12-4 (1st)

Everyone must be F'ing stupid since Pats has been cheating for the pass 13 years

Spygate, every team in the nfl have spies but Belachick took it to the next level...he cheats

Next season, the Pats went 16-0 to proof something

Last season, Belachick out coached two teams in the playoffs and got alot of heat saying hes bending the rules. He was but he simply "Out Coached" them....he was fukin brillant in my eyes but if I was a fan on the other team I can see why there are so much hate

So someone decides to pick on a ball to accuse them of cheating when every QB in the league knows they do the same. When i say the same it doesnt have to be deflated balls but some form of munipulating them.

When you're that good for over 10 years...someone is going to try to take you down

[tony20009]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

Wow

Ok, this is exactly what I mean...everyone is making a big deal out of it because ia the New England Patriots

Remember when ODB (obeckham jr) made that awesome catch and everyone was like OMFG, Wow, unbelieveable...if that was caught by a Pats player everyone would say that they cheated with sticky gloves

2001 11-5 (1st)
2002 9-7 (2nd)
2003 14-2 (1st)
2004 14-2 (1st)
2005 10-6 (1st)
2006 12-4 (1st)
2007 16-0 (1st)
2008 11-5 (2nd)
2009 10-6 (1st)
2010 14-2 (1st)
2011 13-3 (1st)
2012 12-4 (1st)
2013 12-4 (1st)
2014 12-4 (1st)

Everyone must be F'ing stupid since Pats has been cheating for the pass 13 years

Spygate, every team in the nfl have spies but Belachick took it to the next level...he cheats

Next season, the Pats went 16-0 to proof something

Last yr, Belachick out coached two teams in the playoffs and got alot of heat saying hes bending the rules. He was but he simply "Out Coached" them....he was fukin brillant in my eyes but if I was a fan on the other team I can see why there are so much hate

So someone decides to pick on a ball to accuse them of cheating when every QB in the league knows they do the same. When i say the same it doesnt have to be deflated balls but some form of munipulating them.

When you're that good for over 10 years...someone is going to try to take you down

"Everyone" is not. I'm part of "everyone" and my objections have nothing to do with New England's being the team in question. That it's the Patriots has nothing to do with it for me because there's only one circumstance in which I'm a football fan at all, and that circumstance is the Redskins being in the game. The Redskins have been so "not in the game" for the past 20 years that I've for about half of my adult life not been a football fan at all, much less a Patriots fan or non-fan.

The fact is that but for it making the news and my circumstantially hearing it on WTOP (D.C. news radio), I doubt I'd have known about it. I can assure you it didn't make news I'd have noticed in the PRC and the rest of South Asia, which, aside from airplanes, is where I spend the bulk of my time.

Red:
I don't care who does it. I don't care how often they do it. I don't care who gets caught doing it and who doesn't. It's wrong and it's cheating every time any team does it until such time as the NFL changes the rules of the game to the extent that it no longer is cheating.

If you or someone else shows me another team that deliberately deflated their footballs, I'll write/say exactly what I'm saying about the Patriots having done so. Depending on the circumstances, I may even take a more rigidly negative stance about it. I'm certainly not going to have a less strident view about any team that willfully under inflates their footballs.

All the best.

[ska///235i]

Ok so you havent watched football for 20 years. TV and sports arw very different now a days.