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      03-30-2011, 05:46 PM   #45
mrgold
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
This is the default BMW oil info sheet.

Notice the first section it calls for 5w-30, this oil is the default oil unless otherwise noted.

It does have a special M section, but the M section specifically only states 4 engines, S54, S62, S65, S85 that needed the 10w-60.

This means the S63 is not part of the exception.

Of note, there is a Alpina B7 section that calls for the standard 5w-30 oil, the B7 engine is derived from the N63 engine, just like the S63 engine in the X5/6M. They all uses the same N63 engine block, there are no extra oil passages on the S63 for extra oil flow, which means the heavier 10w-60 oil will no provide enough flow at the top end of the rev range.

This sheet is also the same info the BMW rep pull up when you called in. There is no special section for S63, as it is suppose to be using the dedault oil, but since it's installed in a X5/6M, with the M being the keyword he heard, he defaults back to the M section.

Btw, when talking about 'sophisticated' engine oil, BMW factory oil are API SM rated, a higher grade than even the TWS, which is SJ, or it's current form, Castrol Formula RS 10w-60, a SL grade.


In any case, if you want to continue using 10w-60, no one is stopping you. At least when your engine blow up because of insufficient oil flow, you can claim warranty on it as you DID used 'BMW Approved Oil', as told by a BMW rep. You did record that phone call as future evidence did you?
After reading this thread I am compelled to step in as wrong information is bad for our whole BMW community. The main reason I am chiming in is to correct the mistaken claim that by using the heavier weight TWS 10w-60 oil in the motor that somehow oil flow will not be sufficient for sustained high RPM situations. That simply is not true. The S63 engine is NOT going to mysteriously melt down, prematurely wear out or blow up due to insufficient oil flow at the top end of the rev range just because of using the TWS 10w-60 motor oil. PERIOD! Why?

1. Believe it or not BMW (especially M division) is not that stupid to build an engine which can be that easily damaged just because a customer is using the thicker performance motor oil (especially their own BMW approved high performance motor oil).

2. The viscosity thickness difference at regular operating temperatures 100 C (212 F) for the 10w-60 and the 5w-30 is much closer than what most people think.

Viscosity chart http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

Viscosity of 10w-60 @ 100 C (212 F) = 21.90 – 26.09 range
Viscosity of 5w-30 @ 100 C (212 F) = 9.30 – 12.49 range

The true viscosity difference between the two motor oils at operating temperatures will be about 12 and not 30. Therefore at regular operating temperatures the 5w-30 is actually at about 10 viscosity and 10w-60 is at about 22 viscosity which is definitely “thin” enough for oil flow at high RPM.

3. Oil pressure rises as engine RPM rises. There is plenty of oil pressure @ 7000 RPM to assure sufficient oil flow for the heavier weight oil. Especially at normal operating temperature when the 10w-60 is actually only at 22 viscosity.

On a side note, I just called 3 different BMW dealers in the Los Angeles county area and 1 in San Francisco and all 4 BMW techs said the TWS 10w-60 is the correct oil (preferred) for the engine according to their service computers. One tech did state that the standard 5w-30 can be used as an alternative when TWS 10w-60 is not available but not recommended if the customer will be doing any high performance driving. That being said, there might be different recommendations for different areas with colder climates but I have not heard or seen anything about it. For me I would choose the TWS 10w-60 oil simply because it is the best oil available approved by BMW M.
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      03-30-2011, 06:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgold View Post
After reading this thread I am compelled to step in as wrong information is bad for our whole BMW community. The main reason I am chiming in is to correct the mistaken claim that by using the heavier weight TWS 10w-60 oil in the motor that somehow oil flow will not be sufficient for sustained high RPM situations. That simply is not true. The S63 engine is NOT going to mysteriously melt down, prematurely wear out or blow up due to insufficient oil flow at the top end of the rev range just because of using the TWS 10w-60 motor oil. PERIOD! Why?

1. Believe it or not BMW (especially M division) is not that stupid to build an engine which can be that easily damaged just because a customer is using the thicker performance motor oil (especially their own BMW approved high performance motor oil).

2. The viscosity thickness difference at regular operating temperatures 100 C (212 F) for the 10w-60 and the 5w-30 is much closer than what most people think.

Viscosity chart http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/visc.html

Viscosity of 10w-60 @ 100 C (212 F) = 21.90 – 26.09 range
Viscosity of 5w-30 @ 100 C (212 F) = 9.30 – 12.49 range

The true viscosity difference between the two motor oils at operating temperatures will be about 12 and not 30. Therefore at regular operating temperatures the 5w-30 is actually at about 10 viscosity and 10w-60 is at about 22 viscosity which is definitely “thin” enough for oil flow at high RPM.

3. Oil pressure rises as engine RPM rises. There is plenty of oil pressure @ 7000 RPM to assure sufficient oil flow for the heavier weight oil. Especially at normal operating temperature when the 10w-60 is actually only at 22 viscosity.

On a side note, I just called 3 different BMW dealers in the Los Angeles county area and 1 in San Francisco and all 4 BMW techs said the TWS 10w-60 is the correct oil (preferred) for the engine according to their service computers. One tech did state that the standard 5w-30 can be used as an alternative when TWS 10w-60 is not available but not recommended if the customer will be doing any high performance driving. That being said, there might be different recommendations for different areas with colder climates but I have not heard or seen anything about it. For me I would choose the TWS 10w-60 oil simply because it is the best oil available approved by BMW M.
Your numbers is quite correct for the viscosity of the 2 oils at operating temperature. However, you forgot to notice that a difference of 12 in the viscosity rating already means a 100+% increase, that's doubled.

Oil pressure is a product of flow and viscosity, the ratio is almost 1:1 as the oil line size is constant. Since BMW regulate oil pressure in engines, once they reached the limiter they stay there, as there is a pop-off valve to relieve excess pressure. In simple terms if you double the viscosity the flow is halved at any given pressure. Oil served 2 functions in an engine, oil pressure is for lubrication as the pressure keeps the metal parts separated, oil flow is for cooling, it carries away heat.

You can see now an engine spec-ed for 30 viscosity oil will have double the flow of a 60 viscosity oil at operating temperature with a capped oil pressure point.

Unlike earlier specialized purpose build M engines, BMW didn't cast a new block for S63 engines, it still uses the N63 block, and same architecture of the regular N63 like reversed intake exhaust heads. It's just a tuned version of the N63. Even if it has extra oil passages for the thicker oil to increase flow,which I doubt, the lighter 30 oil will still have double the cooling capacity while providing the same oil pressure for lubrication.

TWS 10w-60 is not the 'BEST' oil approved by BMW, TWS is only SJ rated, 2 steps behind current standard, even the RS 10w-60 is only SL rated, one step behind current. BMW's own factory 5w-30 is SM rated, the best available as API has a much higher tolerance and standard for SM than SJ or SL rating. To the best of my knowledge, the TWS and the Castrol didn't meet the higher SM standard.

60 in the oil doesn't mean it's better than a 30, it just means thicker, but a API SM rated oil is definitely better than a SJ or SL rated one.
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      03-30-2011, 10:04 PM   #47
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Whoopsy. So, will you put 10w-30 4 stroke lawnmower oil in you car because it flows? Hey, it flows great, its oil, it cools great, it must work! Can you please address shear rating of the said oils, oh great oil master. Please enlighten us.

Look, I can see your point about flow but why do you keep ignoring load?

Fine, since we are discussing oil pressure, let's throw in the VANOS system in the mix. It needs oil too. The same oil that is flowing through the vains of S63. What about it's requirements?
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      03-30-2011, 10:08 PM   #48
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Also, the B7 referenced in the BMW PDF you linked....isn't that the pevious generation of B7 and not your MY 2011 B7? The publication is printed January 2008. I don't think the current model of B7 officially existed then. Correct me if I am wrong.
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      03-30-2011, 11:46 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsme123 View Post
Whoopsy. So, will you put 10w-30 4 stroke lawnmower oil in you car because it flows? Hey, it flows great, its oil, it cools great, it must work! Can you please address shear rating of the said oils, oh great oil master. Please enlighten us.

Look, I can see your point about flow but why do you keep ignoring load?

Fine, since we are discussing oil pressure, let's throw in the VANOS system in the mix. It needs oil too. The same oil that is flowing through the vains of S63. What about it's requirements?
Hmm, do I want to respond to you being childish?

You said it, LAWNMOWER oil, not AUTOMOTIVE, not even close, as if I ask you do you eat dog chow instead of human chow.

API grades include standards for the shear rating of the oil, so current SM rating > SL, SJ.

I was hoping you would bring up VANOS it needs oil and the quicker oil gets to it on cold starts the better to avoid excessive wear. So the less viscosity on cold start the better. But AFTER the oil gets to the VANOS system, it's pretty much operate as closed circuit, so only oil pressure, from memory it operates at 100 bar, is what really matters, flow, viscosity doesn't make a difference anymore.

Anyway, seeing there are many reports in hot climates like LA and Taiwan calling for 10w-60 instead of 5w-30, I had ask my M contact for more clarification, I will know more in a day or two.
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      03-31-2011, 12:07 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsme123 View Post
Also, the B7 referenced in the BMW PDF you linked....isn't that the pevious generation of B7 and not your MY 2011 B7? The publication is printed January 2008. I don't think the current model of B7 officially existed then. Correct me if I am wrong.
My manual calls for BMW long life oil LL-01 or 04.

The BMW Factory 5w-30 is 01, 04 is only found in Europe.

I asked Alpina and they told me the same thing, BMW Factory Oil 5w-30, which is the same as the pdf and the previous gen B7. They also told it would be the same oil as in my X6M also, all engines in the 63 family uses the same oil.
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      03-31-2011, 02:43 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
I was hoping you would bring up VANOS it needs oil and the quicker oil gets to it on cold starts the better to avoid excessive wear. So the less viscosity on cold start the better.

On cold start the 10w-30 and 10w-60 is the same viscosity.

Dude....I give up. So far I asked you to provide solid prove from verifyable sources to back up your claim. All I got was your theories and the mysterious M guy. Let's leave Alpina out of this for now because that motor is a modified N63 motor by Alpina and not build by M with a different engine code. To me that makes a difference. I have called BMW NA, BMW service departments, and have my car serviced at BMW (large and reputable) dealer which all have pointed fingers at the TWS 10w-60. You can call for your self any one of the places I've been or called. Can your final verdict be verified by everyone of us with a phone call? If the BMW recomended oil get my engine to blow up, then BMW will fix it under warranty. If I go with Whoopsy recommended oil and my engine blows up, who is going to warranty my car? That's what I thought. I guess in the end we will agree to disagree.

BTW, I will not give my dog anything I would not eat my self....EVER!

Last edited by itsme123; 03-31-2011 at 02:49 AM.
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      03-31-2011, 03:00 AM   #52
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More interesting bits of info on TWS:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1353856
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      03-31-2011, 12:48 PM   #53
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Ok this is what I get back from my contact.

All BMW engines uses BMW LL-01 oil for North American market because of the high sulphur content, rest of the world uses LL-04 for lower sulphur content.

BMW LL-01 synthetic has 2 grades, 5w-30 and 10w-60, and all engines can use either, except the S85, S65, S62, S54 which can only use the 10w-60 version.

The BMW LL-01 5w-30 has no equivalent on the market, Castrol specially formulated the oil for BMW. It's unlike any other 5w-30 on the market, it acts more like a 40 weight oil, same can be said for the BMW LL-01 10w-60, it also has no equivalent on the market, special blend from Castrol for BMW. It is on the lighter side, close to a 50 weight. BMW LL-01 spec-ed for HTHS, high temperature high shear rating of > 3.5, API SM and ACEA A3 rating, Castrol TWS, RS 10w-60 doesn't meet the SM rating but it has the A3 rating and shear strength > 3.5, which is why they're spec-ed as alternative for BMW LL-01 10w-60. But to him the BMW LL-01 10w-60 is still the better oil. (Company line?)

BMW spec blends the 5w-30 heavier than normal for the extended oil change interval, it also spec-ed the 10w-60 lighter so it flows better. In practical terms these 2 oils are a lot closer in characteristics than their number indicated.

There aren't many oil that can meet the BMW LL-01 spec, especially the A3 spec, most are A1, some company sent their oil to BMW for testing and get approved and those are on the approved list and it's a short one. Castrol's own 5w-30 doesn't meet the spec but their 0w-30 does, Go figures.

When in doubt, buy BMW LL-01 oil from dealers.

For colder climate locations the default oil will be the 5w-30 because of the better cold flow characteristic, for warmer climate the 5w or 10w rating makes no difference, BUT this is the interesting part, BMW LL-01 10w-60 retails almost double the price of the BMW LL-01 5w-30, higher margin for the dealers, the margin is there and doesn't matter if the customer pays or they bill BMW back for no-charge service. He said he is not surprised that the 10w-60 is getting quoted, but to the engine either one is fine because of the LL-01 rating.

In summary, as long as the LL-01 spec is met, it doesn't matter what oil is put in the engine. This pretty much clears up any confusion now I think.


BMW is like the weirdo in car industry, they are the only one with their own blend of oil, Porsche uses off the shelf Mobil 1 and AMG also, even Ferrari uses Shell 'standard' Helix oil. Even funnier when you consider BMW 'recommends' Castrol and Castrol makes the BMW oil but not many of Castrol's standard products are BMW approved. Can't they make life simpler uses off the shelf Castrol products?


Anyway, whatever he replied pretty much nullified the last page worth of posts in this thread on theoretical oil physics, but I am extremely happy about the clarification as my 997Turbo uses the Mobil 1 0w-40 and it is on the LL-01 approved list, so I can stock just one kind of oil for all my cars. The Mobil 1 0w-40 is pretty much the best oil there is anyway, it has all the important certifications from BMW, Porsche and Mercedes AMG.
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      04-03-2011, 09:11 AM   #54
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This forum is so funny! How many of you are actually mechanics? How many of you actually can fix a car or even change your tires? Weird, so many giving different answers but only few can come up real close. I'm a mechanic in the Army and I don't even come close, so you know what I do? I call the dealership and talk to BMW in Munich. They know the answers. So instead giving the right and wrong answers, go to your maintenance service and ask lol.... When I had my windshield crack twice on my first BMW, I went to the dealership and requested to link me to Munich and they did. That's what I'm going to do when I pick up my car, call BMW Munich again!!! Happy days people and keep reading wikipedia lol.
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      12-24-2011, 02:15 AM   #55
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My latest service is just complete. So far I have went a little over 8K miles for each of my two years of ownership, and at 12 month intervals, have had the oil changed.

This time the dealer did not use the TWS oil and instead used the 5W-30 oil part number 07-51-0-017-954. So now I have had both types of oil in the car. It is the first thing I looked at on the invoice, and I had the TWS oil part number with me, so I knew it right away. I remembered all these posts, and was in a hurry to leave, so off I went. If I happen to now get slightly better mileage, I will assume it is due to the different oil.

Does anyone still recall having the dealer use the TWS oil in the X6M lately? Maybe their service instructions have now been updated to inform them that it is not required?
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      01-28-2012, 09:11 PM   #56
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I read with interest the thread re recommended motor oil for the X5M. I have a 2012 with 4300 miles on it and took the vehicle in for an early oil and filter change rather than wait the recommended 13,000 miles per the computer analysis the dealer performed from the vehicle "key". For what its worth, the BMW dealer in Pleasanton California initially said they would use the 60 weight Castrol, then looked further into it and said the lighter weight 5W30 was THE CORRECT oil to use. That decision reduced the pricing on the service and thus dealer profit. To compound the issue the SW said the X5M ENGINE is "NOT A TRUE M ENGINE" and thus doesn't use the same motor oil as the M3 and M5. So the last word to date is 5W30 for the X5M.
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      05-17-2012, 10:16 AM   #57
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Not trying to "feed the trolls" or anything, but in researching oil specifications, I found the following "official" BMW document http://www.chapmanbmw.com/PDF/servic...ty_booklet.pdf which may be of interest to those following this thread. It specifically states (on Page 6):

Quote:
All 2010 model year X5 M and X6 M vehicles are factory-filled with BMW High Performance SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Oil (BMW part number
07 51 0 017 866). We recommend this oil for regularly scheduled engine oil changes.
Although this is the "X5M & X6M Service Warranty Booklet" for 2010, I don't expect anything would have changed. Again, my goal is not to stir the pot, but just offer this up to anyone who is interested...
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      05-17-2012, 06:08 PM   #58
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Hello,

Yes that is what is says in my "new" 2013 booklet also. Huston, we have a problem: If you look at the left side of my engine compartment, there is a large sticker on a brace that says us only BMW 07-51-0-002-545 OIL which is 5W-40 Synthetic oil. Whatever.........
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      05-17-2012, 08:41 PM   #59
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Wow - Nice find! I'll have to see if I have a similar sticker...
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      05-17-2012, 08:56 PM   #60
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Confirmed, sticker in the engine compartment clearly says "Use Only 07.51-0 002 545"!

Nice find Luca!
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      05-17-2012, 09:20 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucabratsi View Post
Hello,

Yes that is what is says in my "new" 2013 booklet also. Huston, we have a problem: If you look at the left side of my engine compartment, there is a large sticker on a brace that says us only BMW 07-51-0-002-545 OIL which is 5W-40 Synthetic oil. Whatever.........
A little more research (other threads on the net) seem to indicate that if you have your dealer run that number it will show the 5W30 High Perf Synthetic as the designated replacement. The 5W40 may not be available any longer (or may have been replaced)... But perhaps the stickers live on...

The engine compartment stickers do also state that "other oils as indicated in the service manual may also be used" - and that certainly also backs up the 5W30 synthetic as it is specifically listed as discussed above...
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      05-18-2012, 06:48 AM   #62
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Hello,

So then possibly the Mobile 0W40 is the best alternative as mentioned above.

Cheers,
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      05-18-2012, 06:53 AM   #63
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Hello,

Just went to the Mobil 1 website and their search by vehicle calls out 0W40.

http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/....aspx?option=2

Cheers,
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      05-18-2012, 09:34 AM   #64
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Here is the latest (Oct 2010) Operating Fluids document from BMW. At the top of page 4 it specifically says:

Quote:
E70 X5M and E71 X6M with S63 engine require SAE 5W-30 Part No. 07 51 0 017 866 BMW High Performance Synthetic Oil
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Operating Fluids.11 10.10.pdf (82.1 KB, 329 views)
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      05-18-2012, 09:46 AM   #65
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10-4 on the Mobile 1 0W-40 as well...
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      07-03-2012, 05:06 PM   #66
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After some study, a favorable oil for our S63 is:

1. AMSOIL European Car Formula 5W-40 Synthetic Motor Oil Product Code: AFL
http://www.amsoil.com/catalog.aspx?GroupID=170

I will go with what the engine plate calls out (Use Only 07.51-0 002 545) not the 5W-30. I found out that the BMW 5W-40 was no longer available so the 5W-30 is an alternative.
Confirmed with my dealer, if I purchase the oil, they will put it in.

This is only my opinion, others may vary.

Cheers,
Lucabratsi
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