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      03-25-2011, 01:11 AM   #23
LANDLORD
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I will continue to use 10W-60 after the dealer installed it for my first service. It is simply the highest quality oil you could use and will protect the engine under all circumstances. Of course you can use whatever you want once you are out of warranty. All I have read about the TWS oil is that it is a very special oil that has been formulated and refined in its blend. These engines are in fact much different than the engines in the 50i. They have different pistons, a different oil pan, and different cylinder heads among the differences I have read about. They could in fact have different bearing clearances also, we have no way of knowing, without finding someone who can look in the factory engine specifications. Hopefully they will fix the ///M supplement manual so that it would spell it out for all of us once and for all.
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      03-25-2011, 05:46 AM   #24
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10w60= slow
5w30= :-)
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      03-25-2011, 11:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glina View Post
10w60= slow
5w30= :-)
In the simplest term, yes.

The engine is going to waste energy pushing through the thicker 60 weight oil, so it will make less than those engines using 30 weight.

Also on cold starts, the 10w weight oil is going to circulate slower than the lighter 5w weight oil so there will be more wear and tear for the initial few seconds after cold start.
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      03-25-2011, 02:05 PM   #26
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In the simplest term, yes.

The engine is going to waste energy pushing through the thicker 60 weight oil, so it will make less than those engines using 30 weight.

Also on cold starts, the 10w weight oil is going to circulate slower than the lighter 5w weight oil so there will be more wear and tear for the initial few seconds after cold start.
So you would want to use Mobile One's 0W-20 then....it will circulate super fast on warm up. Obviously it's not that simple and and does not work like that. Many engineering factors goes into what weight of oil is used in a motor. It's just not that simples as molasse dripping down the side of the tree. Just bearing (main) clearences alone will be enough to change the weight of the oil used. I don't have any prove, but I am pretty sure the bearing clearences between the M and the regular 50i is different just because there is a big difference in load. The two motors may have the same root, but after all the design changes, they are essentially different, very different in engineering terms. Not saying that fact alone will dictate the use of TWS. Again, please go to the dealer and have them pull it up on the screen. I will not beleive what the dealer "say" or "tell" you by mouth. I went to a BMW parts department and asked what oil I should use for my x6M. His immidiate reaction was the 10W-30. Then he said he better double check. He looked it up on the system and it shows the TWS. Ask the dealer to show you on the screen period. See it for your self.
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      03-25-2011, 02:07 PM   #27
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Quote:
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10w60= slow
5w30= :-)
LOL...too funny. It might make a difference on a 120 hp Honda Civic, but for a 555 beast? Maybe not
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      03-25-2011, 03:52 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glina View Post
10w60= slow
5w30= :-)
LOL...too funny. It might make a difference on a 120 hp Honda Civic, but for a 555 beast? Maybe not
YES you will feel the difference!!!

I'll go with mobile 0w-40 European formula (better performance and better lubrication over 30)

Or

Castrol 0w-30 European formula (better performance than 40 little less lubrication) castrol European formula 30 grade is little thicker than any other 30 grade, you could say that is like 35.
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      03-25-2011, 03:58 PM   #29
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And you don't want to go 20 on turbo cars! Is too thin, you still want little higher grade to work as a good sealant especially on turbo cars
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      03-25-2011, 05:37 PM   #30
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Very interesting read in regards to Castrol TWS.

http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=295656

Again, demonstrating that the quality of oil is not just about weights/viscosity.
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      03-25-2011, 05:38 PM   #31
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So you would want to use Mobile One's 0W-20 then....it will circulate super fast on warm up. Obviously it's not that simple and and does not work like that. Many engineering factors goes into what weight of oil is used in a motor. It's just not that simples as molasse dripping down the side of the tree. Just bearing (main) clearences alone will be enough to change the weight of the oil used. I don't have any prove, but I am pretty sure the bearing clearences between the M and the regular 50i is different just because there is a big difference in load. The two motors may have the same root, but after all the design changes, they are essentially different, very different in engineering terms. Not saying that fact alone will dictate the use of TWS. Again, please go to the dealer and have them pull it up on the screen. I will not beleive what the dealer "say" or "tell" you by mouth. I went to a BMW parts department and asked what oil I should use for my x6M. His immidiate reaction was the 10W-30. Then he said he better double check. He looked it up on the system and it shows the TWS. Ask the dealer to show you on the screen period. See it for your self.
It is your choice if you want to damage your engine in the long run, you are the one using the wrong oil. You might want to double check your source, ask a difference source or better yet, ask BMW M directly.

The engine in the X5/6M uses the same oil as the one in my Alpina B7, which is 5w-30, same oil that's in all the new twin turbo V8. I had that confirmation from Alpina and M personal directly.

What I posted about the 60 weight oil for the high rev NA M engines in M3,M5/6 and the ZM is what I gather from M personal. I also had a separate conversation with a AMG engine builder, who builds both engines in my CLS55 and my ML63, during email exchanges between him and I. He actually found me from mbworld when I posted his sign on my engine pic. He told me pretty much the same thing on oil weight and engine revs.
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      03-25-2011, 06:19 PM   #32
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Since you are linking thread on oil discussion, here is one from F-Chat on motor oil:

http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles

Hope the article isn't too technical or contains too many words for you, but it provide a wealth of oil information.

Pay attention to chapter 9.

In summary, the thicker 60 weight oil will reach the same oil pressure as the thinner 30 weight because there is a oil pressure regulator in the engine, but the flow rate will be around 50% of the 30 weight oil as at operating temperature the 60 weight oil is double the thickness. Less flow rate at max pressure means less cooling for the engine, also, the max pressure/flow rate will be reached at a lower rpm, so at the upper rpm range the 60 weight oil will not provide enough protection for the engine.

Math, science and physics doesn't lie.

The existing M engines, the NA I6, V8 and V10 all are designed with the reduced flow rate in mind, they have extra jets of oil shooting at proper places to make up for the cooling deficit from reduced oil flow rate. These high revving engines NEEDED the extra sticky oil to stay on their metal parts.

No one said the Castrol 10w-60 is a bad oil, it's is a great oil and it can even be used in Ferrari instead of Shell oil, but it's just the wrong weight for the engine.
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      03-25-2011, 08:46 PM   #33
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Hope the article isn't too technical or contains too many words for you, but it provide a wealth of oil information.
OMG! You are so internet cool for linking such a technical article! My feable mind can not comprehend all the words contained within. I feel so dumb....


Look, nothing is wrong about what you said. What we are all trying to figure out SPECIFICLY is what BMW M is calling for as the standard oil to use for the X6M. That article is very generic in terms of motor oil and it's properties which is fine. No one is arguing against that. But we are all trying to figure out what is what is specificly speced out for the X6M. As you can see there are many conflicting information from many sources. Especially the contradictions from BMW service departments. Doesn't this bother you one bit? Have you brought yours in for service and what did they fill yours with?

Bottom line is we need a clarification from BMW M to end this discussion. I love to contact BMW Motorsport, but can't find any contact info. Anyone have that info? I doubt they would take my call anyways......

BTW, one more thing. You keep refering to the need of the TWS in high revving engines. But what about load? A high or higher load motor also demands a more "sophisticated" oil.
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      03-28-2011, 10:16 PM   #34
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Look, load had nothing to do with the weight of the oil, weight is only a measure of the stickiness of the oil, that's why the high revving engines needs the extra sticky oil in order to stay on the metal parts, lighter oil will get fling off.

Simple experiment for you, grab a stick, dip it in water, than start swinging, does the water stay on? Do the same thing but dip it in honey, does it stay on?

Modern synthetic oil molecules do not break down no matter the load, unlike regular mineral oil, all synthetic oil has the same base unbreakable base molecules, the difference being the additives that's added that separate brands and grade. The additives are mostly detergent that keeps the engine clean.

BMW has specified the minimum API grade fro engine oil, Castrol 10w-60 and the Castrol 5w-30 that the X5/6M engine needs already met and exceed that grade, there is no added benefit of the additional 'additives' in the 10w-60, anyway most of the additional additives in the 10w-60 over the 5w-30 is for extending the viscosity range of the oil, giving it a 50 weight range.

Again, BMW spec the Castrol 10w-60 for the V10, V8, I6 engine only because of the high revving nature of those engines, the extra stickiness is NEEDED. It's has nothing to do with the so called 'extra sophisticated' TWS 10w-60, it's just a myth within the TWS fan club that the TWS is 'better'. BMW could have spec Shell Helix 10w-60 for those engines as well, the Shell is equal if not better than the Castrol, but Castrol was spec-ed only because they had a contract with BMW, nothing more.
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      03-28-2011, 10:38 PM   #35
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Let me throw my 2 cents out here! W stands for WINTER, not weight. Oil is measured with viscosity. So for those of you using the wrong thicker oil, think this way if you force a thicker oil through smaller passage you're damaging the seals. Viscosity rating has something to do with WINTER due to oil freezing. Let me double check with my Army books lol....
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      03-29-2011, 02:35 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy View Post
Look, load had nothing to do with the weight of the oil, weight is only a measure of the stickiness of the oil, that's why the high revving engines needs the extra sticky oil in order to stay on the metal parts, lighter oil will get fling off.

Simple experiment for you, grab a stick, dip it in water, than start swinging, does the water stay on? Do the same thing but dip it in honey, does it stay on?

Modern synthetic oil molecules do not break down no matter the load, unlike regular mineral oil, all synthetic oil has the same base unbreakable base molecules, the difference being the additives that's added that separate brands and grade. The additives are mostly detergent that keeps the engine clean.

BMW has specified the minimum API grade fro engine oil, Castrol 10w-60 and the Castrol 5w-30 that the X5/6M engine needs already met and exceed that grade, there is no added benefit of the additional 'additives' in the 10w-60, anyway most of the additional additives in the 10w-60 over the 5w-30 is for extending the viscosity range of the oil, giving it a 50 weight range.

Again, BMW spec the Castrol 10w-60 for the V10, V8, I6 engine only because of the high revving nature of those engines, the extra stickiness is NEEDED. It's has nothing to do with the so called 'extra sophisticated' TWS 10w-60, it's just a myth within the TWS fan club that the TWS is 'better'. BMW could have spec Shell Helix 10w-60 for those engines as well, the Shell is equal if not better than the Castrol, but Castrol was spec-ed only because they had a contract with BMW, nothing more.
Again, no one is disputing the basic properties of oil here. This post is not about engine oil properties. It's about: Why variouis BMW service centers are giving out conflicting information on which oil to use?, which you have not been able to answer. I think if was clearly stated in the manual, then there would not have been many of us asking the question on which oil to use. Again, there seems to be a bit of ambiguity in the manaul that are include in the MY 2010 model. The main manual is the generic X6/X5 manual wich states the 30 to 40 weight oil being used. But there is no mention of the type of oil in the M supplemental manual. We have seen various accounts of verbal and visual varifications of both types of oil being filled at service centers. Are we to fully trust our BMW service centers? AGAIN, have you have yours serviced and what did they put into your vehicle? Please remember, many of us did not specificly ask for the TWS when we have our vehicle serviced. It is what the the default is called up for oil service when the service center pull it up on the screen. I would really like to know if my car is getting filled with wrong oil and if so, a verification from BMW. I am sure you feel the same, no?

Hmmm....load does have a bearing (lol...no pun intened) on what type of oil is used. A typical factory Japanese speedbike that revs to 13k redline still calls for a 40 weight oil. It's not just about "high reving". Also to clarify, the term "high reving" is subjective. A MY 2000 BMW M5 revs "only" to 7000 rpm and that vehicle calls for the 10-60 TWS as well. Is that considered a "high reving" car?
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      03-29-2011, 02:22 PM   #37
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Again, no one is disputing the basic properties of oil here. This post is not about engine oil properties. It's about: Why variouis BMW service centers are giving out conflicting information on which oil to use?, which you have not been able to answer. I think if was clearly stated in the manual, then there would not have been many of us asking the question on which oil to use. Again, there seems to be a bit of ambiguity in the manaul that are include in the MY 2010 model. The main manual is the generic X6/X5 manual wich states the 30 to 40 weight oil being used. But there is no mention of the type of oil in the M supplemental manual. We have seen various accounts of verbal and visual varifications of both types of oil being filled at service centers. Are we to fully trust our BMW service centers? AGAIN, have you have yours serviced and what did they put into your vehicle? Please remember, many of us did not specificly ask for the TWS when we have our vehicle serviced. It is what the the default is called up for oil service when the service center pull it up on the screen. I would really like to know if my car is getting filled with wrong oil and if so, a verification from BMW. I am sure you feel the same, no?

Hmmm....load does have a bearing (lol...no pun intened) on what type of oil is used. A typical factory Japanese speedbike that revs to 13k redline still calls for a 40 weight oil. It's not just about "high reving". Also to clarify, the term "high reving" is subjective. A MY 2000 BMW M5 revs "only" to 7000 rpm and that vehicle calls for the 10-60 TWS as well. Is that considered a "high reving" car?

Again, the correct oil is the 10w-30, a lot of the BMW dealers are just assuming it's a M and it will use the 10w-60 that's SPECIFICALLY stated for the other M engines. Then you factor in the bigger profit margin of the 10w-60 and you will see why a few dealers WANT to sell you that oil instead.

BMW thought it was clear that the engine uses the 5w-30 as printed in he manual because they didn't specifically state the engine NEEDS 10w-60 like the other M engines. Common sense?

The bikes uses 2-stroke engines, different architecture than the 4 stroke car engines, wrong comparison. And yes, 7000 rpm is already a high rev, it is a rpm range you don't normally see on most engines.

Since you are the one wanting to use the thicker oil, you are the one who risk damaging your engine without sufficient oil cooling at the high end of the rev range. Both thinner oil and thicker oil will achieve the same oil pressure as spec by BMW, so it won't throw a low oil pressure code, but the flow of oil will be around half of 5w-30 at the top end of the rev range for the 10w-60, in effect you will be getting only half the cooling from oil sprays. Since you are filling the same amount of oil, the ECU won't throw a code for low oil volume, and you won't get a code for low flow as the ECU doesn't check for that either. in effect, you might think everything is fine since there is no code but you are damaging your engine in silent.

I've had my confirmation for 5w-30 oil use from 2 sources, one from Alpina directly for my B7 engine and one from a M personal that I met before, two source that I believe are more reliable than dealers.
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      03-29-2011, 02:25 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gilbertfg View Post
Let me throw my 2 cents out here! W stands for WINTER, not weight. Oil is measured with viscosity. So for those of you using the wrong thicker oil, think this way if you force a thicker oil through smaller passage you're damaging the seals. Viscosity rating has something to do with WINTER due to oil freezing. Let me double check with my Army books lol....
Yes, w in 5w-30 stands for winter, as the first number with the w is the viscosity rating when cold and the second number is when hot.

But since most people uses weight when referring different viscosity oil rating, the term weight stuck.
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      03-29-2011, 08:07 PM   #39
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Then you factor in the bigger profit margin of the 10w-60 and you will see why a few dealers WANT to sell you that oil instead.

Hmmm....I don't and have not paid for any oil that is involed in any normal service called for by BMW within the 4 years 50k free maintnance plan that is included in the car. For this or previous BMWs M or Non M.

BMW thought it was clear that the engine uses the 5w-30 as printed in he manual because they didn't specifically state the engine NEEDS 10w-60 like the other M engines. Common sense?

No, it does not make sense. They would of warned in big red letters to NOT use 10w-60 because it will blow up the motor.

The bikes uses 2-stroke engines, different architecture than the 4 stroke car engines, wrong comparison. And yes, 7000 rpm is already a high rev, it is a rpm range you don't normally see on most engines.

Ok....I mean this in the nicest way: Which planet are you from? Please pick your choices of Suzuki, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Honda, and go to their respective sites. Then find a street bike that is 2 cycles. I am refering to popular stree bikes such as the GSXR, R1, CBRs and etc.

.

Ok here we go. Load, where do we start. A good example is a desiel engine for commercial trucks which is a low rpm high load motor. Motors such as this will need a higher grade motor oil because of the load that it takes through out the crank/main bearing area. What is an indication of good quality oil? Not just viscosity. Also the shear rating of the oil. A high load motor needs an oil that can withstand the the load where the shear rate of the oil is pushed to the limit. Imagine a combustion that is happening in a 5.0 liter motor, a 7.0 liter motor and a 1.0 liter motor. All operating at say a set RPM of 5000 RPM. Are you going to get the same "load" at the main bearing between the different motors? NO. It's not just about the viscosity of oil. Many many factors goes into making an oil. The same rated viscosity oil (say 10w-30) from Castrol of different grade can act very different in the specified condition. Just as there is a difference in quality between brands of the same rated viscosity because of how it's engineered to a specific purpose.

I called BMW NA earlier, 800-831-1117. Spoke to a representative named Fred and asked him what motor oil is recommended for MY 2010 X6M. He took about 15-20 seconds to look it up on his end and replied BMW TWS 10w-60. I repeated 10W-60 three times and he emphaticlly said yes. I then proceeded to tell him that the S63 motor is different then the previous M motors and asked him to double check and he said its the 10W-60. He then asked me again to make sure I am not refering to the S62 motor which had an exception and I said it's the S63. He said the only time any other grades of synthetic oil can be used is for emergency top off where the 10w60 is not available. Please someone else call and verify. For all I know, you may get a different answer, but this is what I got.
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      03-29-2011, 08:24 PM   #40
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Ok here we go. Load, where do we start. A good example is a desiel engine for commercial trucks which is a low rpm high load motor. Motors such as this will need a higher grade motor oil because of the load that it takes through out the crank/main bearing area. What is an indication of good quality oil? Not just viscosity. Also the shear rating of the oil. A high load motor needs an oil that can withstand the the load where the shear rate of the oil is pushed to the limit. Imagine a combustion that is happening in a 5.0 liter motor, a 7.0 liter motor and a 1.0 liter motor. All operating at say a set RPM of 5000 RPM. Are you going to get the same "load" at the main bearing between the different motors? NO. It's not just about the viscosity of oil. Many many factors goes into making an oil. The same rated viscosity oil (say 10w-30) from Castrol of different grade can act very different in the specified condition. Just as there is a difference in quality between brands of the same rated viscosity because of how it's engineered to a specific purpose.

I called BMW NA earlier, 800-831-1117. Spoke to a representative named Fred and asked him what motor oil is recommended for MY 2010 X6M. He took about 15-20 seconds to look it up on his end and replied BMW TWS 10w-60. I repeated 10W-60 three times and he emphaticlly said yes. I then proceeded to tell him that the S63 motor is different then the previous M motors and asked him to double check and he said its the 10W-60. He then asked me again to make sure I am not refering to the S62 motor which had an exception and I said it's the S63. He said the only time any other grades of synthetic oil can be used is for emergency top off where the 10w60 is not available. Please someone else call and verify. For all I know, you may get a different answer, but this is what I got.
Here is your oil 10W60. End of story.
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      03-30-2011, 03:31 AM   #41
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This is the default BMW oil info sheet.

Notice the first section it calls for 5w-30, this oil is the default oil unless otherwise noted.

It does have a special M section, but the M section specifically only states 4 engines, S54, S62, S65, S85 that needed the 10w-60.

This means the S63 is not part of the exception.

Of note, there is a Alpina B7 section that calls for the standard 5w-30 oil, the B7 engine is derived from the N63 engine, just like the S63 engine in the X5/6M. They all uses the same N63 engine block, there are no extra oil passages on the S63 for extra oil flow, which means the heavier 10w-60 oil will no provide enough flow at the top end of the rev range.

This sheet is also the same info the BMW rep pull up when you called in. There is no special section for S63, as it is suppose to be using the dedault oil, but since it's installed in a X5/6M, with the M being the keyword he heard, he defaults back to the M section.

Btw, when talking about 'sophisticated' engine oil, BMW factory oil are API SM rated, a higher grade than even the TWS, which is SJ, or it's current form, Castrol Formula RS 10w-60, a SL grade.


In any case, if you want to continue using 10w-60, no one is stopping you. At least when your engine blow up because of insufficient oil flow, you can claim warranty on it as you DID used 'BMW Approved Oil', as told by a BMW rep. You did record that phone call as future evidence did you?
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      03-30-2011, 11:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
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This is the default BMW oil info sheet.

Notice the first section it calls for 5w-30, this oil is the default oil unless otherwise noted.

It does have a special M section, but the M section specifically only states 4 engines, S54, S62, S65, S85 that needed the 10w-60.

This means the S63 is not part of the exception.

Of note, there is a Alpina B7 section that calls for the standard 5w-30 oil, the B7 engine is derived from the N63 engine, just like the S63 engine in the X5/6M. They all uses the same N63 engine block, there are no extra oil passages on the S63 for extra oil flow, which means the heavier 10w-60 oil will no provide enough flow at the top end of the rev range.

This sheet is also the same info the BMW rep pull up when you called in. There is no special section for S63, as it is suppose to be using the dedault oil, but since it's installed in a X5/6M, with the M being the keyword he heard, he defaults back to the M section.

Btw, when talking about 'sophisticated' engine oil, BMW factory oil are API SM rated, a higher grade than even the TWS, which is SJ, or it's current form, Castrol Formula RS 10w-60, a SL grade.


In any case, if you want to continue using 10w-60, no one is stopping you. At least when your engine blow up because of insufficient oil flow, you can claim warranty on it as you DID used 'BMW Approved Oil', as told by a BMW rep. You did record that phone call as future evidence did you?
The info sheet is published in January 2008. 2008. 2008. 2008. 2008.
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      03-30-2011, 11:06 AM   #43
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Seriously, I dare you to fill your car with 10w-30 4 stroke lawn mower motor oil. It's the same isn't it? Long as it flow it's fine......
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      03-30-2011, 12:08 PM   #44
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Bump: 10W-60 TWS, get over it. There are piston oil squirters in the M block. I am not sure they are also in the non M block.
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