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      01-17-2010, 09:44 PM   #1
DK35
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2010 X6 50i  [4.67]
Exhaust HP gains?????

Hey guys,

Anyone have any performance numbers on a HAMANN and HARTGE exhaust system. Can't seem to find any. Hartge doesn't return emails and Hamann can only ESTIMATE 10 HP for a $4500 exhaust system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
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      01-17-2010, 10:12 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DK35 View Post
Hey guys,

Anyone have any performance numbers on a HAMANN and HARTGE exhaust system. Can't seem to find any. Hartge doesn't return emails and Hamann can only ESTIMATE 10 HP for a $4500 exhaust system.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have done the Hartge exhaust. I believe the gain is ZERO, but sound nice. I will be running a DYNO on the 29th Jan. But I had also done with ECU remapping. I have to warn you, you will loose the low end. After remapping much better have to tell the tuner that you have the new exhaust system.
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      01-17-2010, 10:51 PM   #3
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thanks for the info audio
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      01-18-2010, 08:50 AM   #4
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Supersprint claims a 7 HP gain with their 'Street' muffler for the 3.5. If you can feel a 7 HP gain good for you. AR Design in Denver wants to develop a 3 inch down pipe, I assume similar to the 335i's. He claims 20 HP gain with catalytic converters and 30 HP gain with them removed. I pulled the catalytic converters off a 328i and got a 14-18 HP gain. Car was dynoed before and after.
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      01-18-2010, 09:32 AM   #5
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do you have link to supersprint X6 3.5L muffler?
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      01-18-2010, 12:52 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioquest View Post
I have done the Hartge exhaust. I believe the gain is ZERO, but sound nice. I will be running a DYNO on the 29th Jan. But I had also done with ECU remapping. I have to warn you, you will loose the low end. After remapping much better have to tell the tuner that you have the new exhaust system.
You should really read this:
http://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341367

You won't lose any "low end" torque on a turbo engine with a proper exhaust.
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      01-18-2010, 03:38 PM   #7
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I'm leaning towards the Hamann system. Was told that from a rep that 10-15 hp gain is pretty standard just from the muffler system. Found some pics on their website. The muffler itself is actually two smaller ones instead of one big unit and then they offer intermediate pipes and catalysts. Big $$ but can do one piece at a time. should decrease enough back pressure to get some more decent gains out of it.
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      01-18-2010, 06:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eg3 View Post
You should really read this:
http://www.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341367

You won't lose any "low end" torque on a turbo engine with a proper exhaust.
I did read. But it did. May be it is not a proper Hartge exhaust, I dont know. All I know is that it take a lots of effort to move the car after the change. Anyway the problem is solve after the tunning. But have to admit the high end is very good.
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      01-19-2010, 11:05 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audioquest View Post
I did read. But it did. May be it is not a proper Hartge exhaust, I dont know. All I know is that it take a lots of effort to move the car after the change. Anyway the problem is solve after the tunning. But have to admit the high end is very good.
It might be that you've experienced the similar problem others did: When you get a new exhaust, it disables the valve at the rear muffler but they generally forget to plug the tube that goes into the other part in the body. Basically, whenever you disable that valve, you have to make sure that the tube that goes into that has to be closed off. I believe the ECU thinks that the valve is not opened when you hit the accelerator and limits/delays the power.

In my previous SUV (Infiniti FX35), I've done a complete exhaust except the cat converters. Even with larger-than-necessary tubing & very free-flowing mufflers and even that was a naturally aspirated engine, I didn't feel any noticeable torque loss. Since both you and Henry experienced the same thing, I believe this is an ECU issue (Engine computer), not an exhaust issue.

I've looked at Henry's exhaust pictures and it looks perfectly fine and he only changed the tips, nothing more but felt the same thing which even supports that it's something with the valve. I believe with the tuning you had, they disabled that feature for the valve which helped you out on the low end loss.

I seriously don't want to be a "I know everything, you don't know shit" guy but from experience, I can say that a 2.25" - 2.5" exhaust like you have won't affect the low end torque. You should be even better with it in fact. Also, I'd be very curious to see if you could take a look at that hose and plug it up. I bet you'll even gain some grunt at the low end with that. Here's a pic on that:



It's the same valve control unit that you disable with the golf tee mod. When you change the exhaust, the valve goes away but the hose is still there, plugged into the ECU through that unit you see there. If this hose is not closed, I think the ECU experiences some issue.

Ege
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      01-20-2010, 01:19 AM   #10
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Thanks for the information. On the day when it was install, I did personally check the the hose if it close. It feel like it is running more air than fuel in the low end. Thank you anyway really appreciate that you also take picture on the hose. Mine is resolve after the ECU remapping. Henry valve was also remove according to him, not only the tip.
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      01-20-2010, 09:37 AM   #11
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Yes, the valve is located between the box and the tip so in order to install the 50i exhaust tip and they basically remove the valve together with the old exhaust tip. I am going to ask the people to check whether the tube is sealed. I cannot find the tube therefore need to hoist the car up. Hope can solve the problem soon.
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      01-20-2010, 10:07 AM   #12
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Just laid on my garage floor and found the tube near where the valve used to be. It was capped and tie wrapped to to a strut. I've had zero hesitation problems since the Supersprint system was installed. Obviously the Supersprint has no valve in it.

Last edited by Skywagon; 01-20-2010 at 10:27 AM.
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      01-21-2010, 03:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywagon View Post
Just laid on my garage floor and found the tube near where the valve used to be. It was capped and tie wrapped to to a strut. I've had zero hesitation problems since the Supersprint system was installed. Obviously the Supersprint has no valve in it.
You are so lucky no issue at all. I was also told that Hartge Exhaust is made by Supersprint too. When I receive the carton it was mail from Italy not Germany. Can you take some photo of yours and we can compare it together? After the change do you feel more air is running through your engine? Feel more airy hope you know what I mean. Going for ECU tuning?
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      01-21-2010, 07:20 AM   #14
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I'm starting to think that the issue might be related to some different ECU behavior on the Asian market X6es. Skywagon's supersprint is a single muffler exhaust which is relatively comparable to the dual muffler Hartge. Henry's condition is similar to mine as well since I did the golf tee mod, which keeps the exhaust open and he only removed the valve and changed the tips. Since the tips are bolt-on, not welded, the pipe size is the same as well.. It's also very weird that the engine runs very lean (more air, less fuel) at the low end with just an exhaust change. The exhaust increases the amount of air the engine getting but it should be more obvious at the mid-high end, not the very beginning of the rev range..

I guess we'll see for sure when I get the magnaflow exhaust done sometime this week or next. If the issue is not related to some ECU behavior, I should feel the same low end loss that you guys had.
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      01-21-2010, 07:47 AM   #15
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Will get some pictures next week. Have to get it onto a lift. The system can be seen on the Supersprint web site. I'm running a Juice Box Plug and Play at Stage 4. It makes a considerable difference. Does it solve this problem ? I wouldn't know.
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      01-26-2010, 11:04 AM   #16
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For what it's worth, I've not forgotten about the pictures. The more I drive it in this configuration, 'Supersprint Street Muffler' and resonator removed, the more I think the sound is perfect, at least for me. Clogged up this week, maybe next I'll get it on my shops rack.
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      01-26-2010, 06:21 PM   #17
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Just received an e-mail from Hartge. They said that their system bumps HP for the 50i by 5 hp.
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      01-26-2010, 07:10 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DK35 View Post
Just received an e-mail from Hartge. They said that their system bumps HP for the 50i by 5 hp.
I think that's a VERY conservative estimate. You gain about that much with a 3.5L non-turbo engine. 50 should gain at least twice or maybe three times that.
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      01-26-2010, 07:15 PM   #19
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i guess dropping it on a dyno machine is the only way to really tell. But it does sound awesome on the you-tube video.

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      01-27-2010, 01:54 AM   #20
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On this Friday I will be doing the DYNO test X6 50i with the following

modification so far ECU remapping (PowerChip) and Hartge Exhaust.

I have seen a DYNO test for a stock X6 50i. It read 230.9 KW on the screen. I wonder how it score for a retuning.

Here is the video for the stock
http://www.youtube.com/user/sonnymad#p/u/21/OqOR9nRp6gk
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      01-27-2010, 08:05 AM   #21
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I guess the OEM exhaust is very efficient then if an aftermarket one is claiming to add only 5hp. I recall how crazy the R34 GTR can gain hp with an aftermarket catback. That said, the Hartge sounds pretty nice.
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      01-27-2010, 07:05 PM   #22
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I also like the Hartge exhaust because they are the only ones that offer a rectangular tip just like the stock one. All other companies offer only twin round pipes that aren't even that big. Hamann tips are the biggest at 89mm. The rest that are available are much smaller. Don't know about you but I prefer either a stock looking tip with a little flair to it (Hartge) or some big ass tips that will tell you its a 50i.
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