N63 or S63 cam gear failure? (Update Semi-rebuild)

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

I was unable to remove the nut because the center part would spin with it without spinning the internal pump, if that makes any sense. According to tis manual there is a flat hex piece and it ask “ to check for damage”. Probably a frequent common problem.
Anyhow manage to get the upper oil pan off. To me, it’s worst than removing the cylinder head.
Just remove cylinder 1 rod bearing to check the size. Which was std. I was surprised to see the lower bearing has more wear than the upper. The crank was in great shape.
Going to go with oem bearings as the other were all race tri-metal bearings which I don’t intend on rebuilding anytime soon.

Bottom is lower bearing.

Ok so flats on the shaft lock into position. Is the shaft worn or the hub or both? Very disappointing this happened on a new pump. I wonder if this is the same pump stock that was causing all the failures in th M5's S63.

[TwinSnailz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Ok so flats on the shaft lock into position. Is the shaft worn or the hub or both? Very disappointing this happened on a new pump. I wonder if this is the same pump stock that was causing all the failures in th M5's S63.

When I first removed it from the vehicle, the 3 hole hub was a little loose but the nut was still tight. Spinning the hub in either direction would take a couple revolution before it catches the actual pump shaft. I couldn’t understand that part. I took an impact and try to zip it out but something broke and now the nut is stuck to the center shaft where it screws on. So now the nut and the center will keep turning in either direction without moving the hub or the oil pump itself. Makes it more confusing.

All v8 n63 s63 shares the same pump according to realoem.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

When I first removed it from the vehicle, the 3 hole hub was a little loose but the nut was still tight. Spinning the hub in either direction would take a couple revolution before it catches the actual pump shaft. I couldn’t understand that part. I took an impact and try to zip it out but something broke and now the nut is stuck to the center shaft where it screws on. So now the nut and the center will keep turning in either direction without moving the hub or the oil pump itself. Makes it more confusing.

All v8 n63 s63 shares the same pump according to realoem.

Wow that is confusing, can the pump be pulled apart to see what is going on inside out of curiosity? Yep pump is the same but interestingly BMW only did a short recall for the M5 on the oil pump but nothing for the X5M or n63 variants. If memory serves is was for the shaft separating from the impeller Inside the oil pump, which sounds like what yours was doing when you caught it.

[TwinSnailz]

I didn’t have time to dissect the oil pump yet but manage to remove the valve to clean them and the ports as well. These thing is no ordinary carbon deposit. Its like tar and old chewing gum mixed together.

Anyhow , im digging myself further deep in this sh!t hole and going to remove the engine block to change the main bearing. Just got to get me a cherry picker.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

I didn’t have time to dissect the oil pump yet but manage to remove the valve to clean them and the ports as well. These thing is no ordinary carbon deposit. Its like tar and old chewing gum mixed together.

Anyhow , im digging myself further deep in this sh!t hole and going to remove the engine block to change the main bearing. Just got to get me a cherry picker.

Looks just like my valves when I pulled them, on the plus side you will pick up some lost power by cleaning up the valves. Looks like your exhaust valves are pitted like mine were too. New valves are pretty pricey so I just lapped mine.

Pulling it is definitely the smart move if you have the room. Will make putting back on the heads & lower intakes 10 times easier.

[Dave00]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Looks just like my valves when I pulled them, on the plus side you will pick up some lost power by cleaning up the valves. Looks like your exhaust valves are pitted like mine were too. New valves are pretty pricey so I just lapped mine.

Pulling it is definitely the smart move if you have the room. Will make putting back on the heads & lower intakes 10 times easier.

Not if he's using a cherry picker

Only way that's easier is if you drop it out the bottom.

[TwinSnailz]

Lol no way is dropping the motor out from the bottom is going to happen in my garage.
Finally had some time and got the block out for disassembling.
Main bearings are in perfect condition. Vehicle is just shy of 100k miles.
Rod bearings are similar across the board. Inner center line wear probably from previous owner not warming up the engine before hitting afterburners.

[m5james]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

Just remove cylinder 1 rod bearing to check the size. Which was std. I was surprised to see the lower bearing has more wear than the upper. The crank was in great shape.
Going to go with oem bearings as the other were all race tri-metal bearings which I don’t intend on rebuilding anytime soon.

Bottom is lower bearing.

I'm curious about what oil weight you run and why the oil pump was initially replaced? I run 0W40 Mobil1 since I bought it with 65k, currently have 135k of hard miles...trans gave up and had to replace that, but I digress. I ran my VIN on RealOEM and my oil pump is the 3256 already but I've got a 1/10 production date vs you saying your car is a 2011.

I can't recall dudes name now on IG, but he does S85, S63, etc complete rebuilds and swears up and down about King Bearings and running Redline 5W50 which isn't readily available locally unless I order it online vs Mobil1 @ Wal-Mart.

[TwinSnailz]

Running your vin on realoem is just to list the compatibility of parts throughout different models, interchangeable , updated revised parts and so forth. If yours hasn’t been done by a dealer, then i can guarantee it is the first gen oil pump as mine were 0806. It was a noisy buzzing pump.
The rod bearings, i kept it oem(bimetal)for street daily use. King rod bearings for the s63 are Tri-Metal, based on research, they don’t last as long as bimetal.
Main bearing, i went with king as they are the same bimetal material which is what oem is but at a fraction of the price.

Castrol 0-40 winter , 5-40 summer.

[Dawgz]

Any update on this?

[TwinSnailz]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Any update on this?

Yes , perfect timing. Had the car finished and first test drive yesterday. I thought i was driving a cadilac there for a min. It was soo smooth and super responsive. The old timing chain was a bit stretch.

I don’t recommend anyone dropping this motor from the top. As big as a suv may sound, the engine bay have zero space. I had to tilt the motor in one side at a time and then lining up everything was a 2 day process.
Still taking it easy with the cheap oil to flush out all the dirt,coolant, and assembly lube that is still in there.
Anyways, this job kicked my ass as far as labor. Parts were just a little over $3k for all gasket, bearings, timing components and a lot of misc bolts for rebuild.

[JohnelP]

Quick Questions: 1st. Do you think it is possible to change the timing chain guides without removing the cylinder heads? I know manual says no, but maybe, a trick to angle the guides to slide???

2nd. Did you have to resurface the cyl block and the cyl heads? Manual says to check the cylinder heads and blocks for warps after touching the head gasket.
Did you do that? Everything on spec?

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

Yes , perfect timing. Had the car finished and first test drive yesterday. I thought i was driving a cadilac there for a min. It was soo smooth and super responsive. The old timing chain was a bit stretch.

I don’t recommend anyone dropping this motor from the top. As big as a suv may sound, the engine bay have zero space. I had to tilt the motor in one side at a time and then lining up everything was a 2 day process.
Still taking it easy with the cheap oil to flush out all the dirt,coolant, and assembly lube that is still in there.
Anyways, this job kicked my ass as far as labor. Parts were just a little over $3k for all gasket, bearings, timing components and a lot of misc bolts for rebuild.

Nicely done. Hats off to you.

This job would probably take some years off my life.

When you reinstalled the timing chains; were they particularly tight compared to before? I just replaced my valve cover gaskets, and inspected the chain. They looked good, but the drivers side bank I could wiggle it slightly on the cam gear. Was not sure if that is normal or not.

Personally. I think these timing chains are really low quality. Especially for an engine that puts out more power than a Ferrari F430. They just seemed small, and dainty. IIRC my e90 m3's timing chain was much more robust than this one. I currently have 85k miles on mine. I maintain it well, and was dealer maintained with 8k oil change intervals during the first ownership.

$3,000 does not sound bad at all for the work you just did.. I think I just spent that in parts just doing valve covers, all seals, water pump, turbo blanket, plugs, vacuum hoses, MAF hoses, ect..

I would like to do some preventative maintenance such as, timing chains, rod bearings, or oil pump. But still undecided on what to do. I know a BMW step program teacher who knows everything about every BMW. And he said just keep up with the 5k oil change interval. And I wont ever have to do anything. I want to believe him. But after seeing the skimpy timing chains on these s63, its hard to take advice like that. Even with him being a BMW trackside engineer, and BMW walking encyclopedia.

Cheers-
Great work!

[TwinSnailz]

Originally Posted by bmwpower603

Nicely done. Hats off to you.

This job would probably take some years off my life.

When you reinstalled the timing chains; were they particularly tight compared to before? I just replaced my valve cover gaskets, and inspected the chain. They looked good, but the drivers side bank I could wiggle it slightly on the cam gear. Was not sure if that is normal or not.

Personally. I think these timing chains are really low quality. Especially for an engine that puts out more power than a Ferrari F430. They just seemed small, and dainty. IIRC my e90 m3's timing chain was much more robust than this one. I currently have 85k miles on mine. I maintain it well, and was dealer maintained with 8k oil change intervals during the first ownership.

$3,000 does not sound bad at all for the work you just did.. I think I just spent that in parts just doing valve covers, all seals, water pump, turbo blanket, plugs, vacuum hoses, MAF hoses, ect..

I would like to do some preventative maintenance such as, timing chains, rod bearings, or oil pump. But still undecided on what to do. I know a BMW step program teacher who knows everything about every BMW. And he said just keep up with the 5k oil change interval. And I wont ever have to do anything. I want to believe him. But after seeing the skimpy timing chains on these s63, its hard to take advice like that. Even with him being a BMW trackside engineer, and BMW walking encyclopedia.

Cheers-
Great work!

Not sure which wiggling movement you did. Movement from side to side is normal and with oil pressure it will tighten up. Movement up is not.
Like other have said, people with M cars are eager to change their oil more frequently and not let it go to 20k miles to take advantage of bmw recommendation free oil chcange. N63 and S63 shares the same timing chain part number.
You have to set the chain tension pretension with the special tool. That’s another thing im sick of when fixing these bmw. Everything needs a special tool lol. Some you can improvise others not so much.

[bmwpower603]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

Not sure which wiggling movement you did. Movement from side to side is normal and with oil pressure it will tighten up. Movement up is not.
Like other have said, people with M cars are eager to change their oil more frequently and not let it go to 20k miles to take advantage of bmw recommendation free oil chcange. N63 and S63 shares the same timing chain part number.
You have to set the chain tension pretension with the special tool. That’s another thing im sick of when fixing these bmw. Everything needs a special tool lol. Some you can improvise others not so much.

Yes. It was an up movement. And it moved up slightly. Only on the drivers side bank..

Passenger bank was tight. They are probably fine. I hear zero rattle on cold start. And the engine sounds very healthy.

[JohnelP]

Lower cover removal (N63)
I have realized one thing that pushes me even further to change the chain guides. I realized the upper oil pan has the same "pools like" - little walls on the inside that form pools trapping debris. And since my smaller plastic debris reached the lower oil pan, I assume there may be more in the upper pan, and chain guides could be in worse condition than I think.
@TwinSnailz - I was looking at your picture taken from techmax.ca where they took the lower cover off without removing the oil pan and cyl heads. I looked the pictures of the part itself (some ebay photos) and it has 2 dowels that prevent any play up or down. Just forward. There are no other grooves to prevent it to slide forward if pushed hard, and overcome the pressure cylheads are compressing in the dowels. Hence your experience for not being able to take it out without cyl heads off. I am thinking to take the upper oil pan off first, slide a small long steel rod behind the cover, until I can catch a portion of it at the water pump hole, get a steel rope through the water pump hole, hook the steel rod and use that as one pull point. I would use the area at the oil sump as the second pull point. Biggest risk is to break the cover, since its aluminum, but I think it is way cheaper to change the cover rather touching the head gasket, take the turborchagers out, exhaust manifold gaskets and bolts.... One concern would be the head gasket portion in contact with the lower cover. If pulled forward hard(er) while the head still pushes on it, may damage that portion of head gasket. It may not seal for high pressures (as that area is not part of cyl head special tighten sequence), so maybe not a tragedy. However, would it disturb the pressure on the nearest 2 cyl head bolts towards the pistons? And disturb the pressure on those 2 head bolts, and mess the seal? Dn't know, asking for opinions now, rather than cry later. I am not talking about the outermost 2 bolts that secure the cover to the cyl head, but the 2 head bolts towards the cylinders that matter if disturbed. Not sure. Rhetorical question to quantify if I should even try it or not.
Or maybe sacrifice the cover, cut it around the dowels from the start? With oil pan removed, and without the dowels it should slide out....
Next question would be if I have clearance to slide over (or twist?) the guide rails in the bearing bolts. I think twisting may not help as the rail is curved. Or maybe a "light" combination of both? Don't know how tight the space in the cyl head is to twist the rails, but I assume with the top timing covers off, I may gain some space.
It's a gamble to judge from pictures only....

I need to get an engine hoist and stand. Would a 1000 lb engine stand be enough for the complete engine? Or should I go to the 1 ton model?

[TwinSnailz]

If you look at the picture where I remove the bare block on the hoist, that was my final attempt to remove with head on and oil pan off. That was a no go ,so head had to come off.
If you look closely near the front crank , theres a couple pin bolt where the chain guides go on to. They will sit quite flush to the cover so I don’t think you can remove/install with the cover on.
Keep in mind the front cover will seal water jackets to the block, be careful when prying or hammering it.
The head gasket portion of the front cover does nothing more than just sealing oil. Theres no extra pressure than what the pvc will see. I would add some gasket sealer silicone if your able to do the desired job.
Engine weighs less than a 1000lb, so a cheap hoist will do. But the only problem was that the arm that extends in to the engine bay is too short. As you can see , i had to rigged up an extension.

The dowel pins for the timing cover is quite important. It holds the cover when you remove or install the crank pulley as the special crank tool is lock on it.

[m5james]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

Running your vin on realoem is just to list the compatibility of parts throughout different models, interchangeable , updated revised parts and so forth. If yours hasn’t been done by a dealer, then i can guarantee it is the first gen oil pump as mine were 0806. It was a noisy buzzing pump.
The rod bearings, i kept it oem(bimetal)for street daily use. King rod bearings for the s63 are Tri-Metal, based on research, they don’t last as long as bimetal.
Main bearing, i went with king as they are the same bimetal material which is what oem is but at a fraction of the price.

Castrol 0-40 winter , 5-40 summer.

I assumed the VIN told me what was currently on the car, but then also listed older and newer revisions.

I visited Ghassan Automotive yesterday and he's against retroactively replacing the bearings like S65/85 guys do, but then I'm sure it's also about people knowing what they're doing, using PlastiGauge correctly, etc. Would you proactively swap bearings and what brand for a street car?

I edited my post from 20W-50 to 5W-50, the 50 he claims as a way to keep oil pressure up. Either way I've run 0W-40 year-round in Seattle which averages 40-80°.

[TwinSnailz]

Originally Posted by m5james

I assumed the VIN told me what was currently on the car, but then also listed older and newer revisions.

I visited Ghassan Automotive yesterday and he's against retroactively replacing the bearings like S65/85 guys do, but then I'm sure it's also about people knowing what they're doing, using PlastiGauge correctly, etc. Would you proactively swap bearings and what brand for a street car?

I edited my post from 20W-50 to 5W-50, the 50 he claims as a way to keep oil pressure up. Either way I've run 0W-40 year-round in Seattle which averages 40-80°.

I purchased my X5m used with a few owners before me. I was quite sure that non of those owners had the engine rebuilt before. After the cam sprocket/new oil pump failed, I removed one of the rod cap just to get an idea and sure enough not good.
The wear indicates that the engine was not up to temperature when it was driven hard. Which is not during my ownership. But at every oil change , the old oil in the drain pan would be glittery. Which now I understand that the bearing is to the point that it’s shredding apart slowly due to the past owner neglecting. Now, knowing that I personally rebuild this motor, would I change the bearings again in a 100k miles later as a precaution? No i would not. I don’t beat on my car on a daily base. Even when i do some spirit drive , it sure better be up to temp.
There’s only 2 aftermarket bearing company that I know of that makes S63/N63 ROD bearings and that is King and ACL.
They are tri-metal , softer to cushion high shock loads but won’t last as long as bi-metal.
Oem is bi metal, which is what i went with.
Be careful when ordering lower rod bearings. There a cut off year which I can’t remember 2012 or 2013 , that the lower rod cap is different. The bearing lock tab is on a different side.

Anyhow this vehicle won’t be with me much longer. Baby on the way and im sure he needs a quiet car. Thinking of an Acura MDX or some kind of Toyota lol. No more performance beast. Whoever gets this M will be a lucky person.

[m5james]

I'm only hard on it after it's fully warmed up...learned that from my E34 M5 days and I've done it to every car since.

I haven't looked into it much but mines a 2010 so maybe that won't be a concern for me.

Yeah, my kids are 10, 13, 20 & 23 and I've been considered looking into a three row vehicle for when we're all together. The GF and I alone have 9 vehicles between us both but none can comfortably fit the whole family so either I continue being creative with parking or one vehicle has to go :/ I bought my X5M used with 63k for 32k and I just paid it off this year so it's gonna suck considering getting rid of it already. I've looked at Toyota's but my problem is I do need fast cars so even supercharged they're just not gonna work. So that leaves Model X, X7 (glutton for punishment) or Tahoe/Yukon and throwing a turbo on it. I'm currently visiting Oklahoma where my son's going to college, he drives a Crosstrek and driving this thing is a reminder that I can't do slow cars...holy shit this thing is bad lol.

[eDubz]

Originally Posted by TwinSnailz

I purchased my X5m used with a few owners before me. I was quite sure that non of those owners had the engine rebuilt before. After the cam sprocket/new oil pump failed, I removed one of the rod cap just to get an idea and sure enough not good.
The wear indicates that the engine was not up to temperature when it was driven hard. Which is not during my ownership. But at every oil change , the old oil in the drain pan would be glittery. Which now I understand that the bearing is to the point that it’s shredding apart slowly due to the past owner neglecting. Now, knowing that I personally rebuild this motor, would I change the bearings again in a 100k miles later as a precaution? No i would not. I don’t beat on my car on a daily base. Even when i do some spirit drive , it sure better be up to temp.
There’s only 2 aftermarket bearing company that I know of that makes S63/N63 ROD bearings and that is King and ACL.
They are tri-metal , softer to cushion high shock loads but won’t last as long as bi-metal.
Oem is bi metal, which is what i went with.
Be careful when ordering lower rod bearings. There a cut off year which I can’t remember 2012 or 2013 , that the lower rod cap is different. The bearing lock tab is on a different side.

Anyhow this vehicle won’t be with me much longer. Baby on the way and im sure he needs a quiet car. Thinking of an Acura MDX or some kind of Toyota lol. No more performance beast. Whoever gets this M will be a lucky person.

I have a 20 month old and another baby on the way in March. We use the M as a daily driver...

You're going to be so bored in an MDX. I bought the M to replace my wife's Acura RDX and loved it so much I kept the M for myself. Ended up getting her an X3 35i Msport.

BMW > Acura > Toyota

After what you've done to maintain your M, I would just drive and smile...

[JohnelP]

Sorry for getting back on the topic of Engine Timing case cover removal with keeping the heads on. However, I cannot quit the idea easily, as the prospect of taking the heads out puts all my enthusiasm on hold...
So, I am studying a way to get Engine Timing Case Cover out with heads on. Been last Saturday to a self service used auto parts yard to get a spare cover as most likely mine will get broken. Plus, it was a good rehearsal opportunity. In fact, I ended up with the rehearsal only, as I didn't reach the point to take it out before closing the lot, and I see they removed the car from the lot...
Anyway, I have noticed there is enough space in the head for the chain guides to be wiggled in without taking the heads out. Noticed the gasket between lower case cover to the short block is not the rubber/gasket builder type that usually glues the parts. I noticed a thin blade is able to break the gasket contact. If i slide a thin blade along the gasket, it may help.
Only catch is to handle those two lateral dowels. I think with the engine on the stand upside down to have the weight of the heads to release a bit of the load, + freezing the area around the head and cover, with upper oil pan out and with a bit of luck - given the dowels may get a play, the cover may slide out.
I have attached two pictures from ebay with the cover and the dowels.
In case the dowels become stubborn, I am thinking to slide a small cutting bit with a dremel rotary and slice the dowels, or, maybe use a larger drill to enlarge the bolt hole on the cover.
Or maybe use an oscillating tool to cut the dowels laterally through the cover ?
I sacrifice the cover; however it will be much cheaper than replacing all head gaskets, intake and exhaust bolts and rings that i need to replace if i take the heads out. Hence my plan to get the spare one in time....

PS. I was able to take 1 head out with all the surroundings, but it is a nightmare with engine in the car.