X5M Valve stem seals

[vioilio]

Anyone experienced failing valve stem seals in theirs E70 X5M? Can a failed valve stem seals cause a misfires?

[deansbimmer]

Even if the valve stem seals were missing completely it would be highly unlikely that misfires would result. If you're experiencing misfires it is going to be something else. If your valve stem seals are leaking you will see oil smoke from the exhaust during startup and randomly during driving.

I've not heard of the S63 as being a chronic sufferer of valve seal failures like some other BMW engines.

[vioilio]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Even if the valve stem seals were missing completely it would be highly unlikely that misfires would result. If you're experiencing misfires it is going to be something else. If your valve stem seals are leaking you will see oil smoke from the exhaust during startup and randomly during driving.

I've not heard of the S63 as being a chronic sufferer of valve seal failures like some other BMW engines.

According to BMW dealeship my issue is with valve stem seals and they are the cause of misfires. I find that very very highly unlikely and so couple of indi shops specializing in bmws.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by vioilio

According to BMW dealeship my issue is with valve stem seals and they are the cause of misfires. I find that very very highly unlikely and so couple of indi shops specializing in bmws.

This wouldn't be the first time a dealer has no clue and wants to start guessing at a problem...

[vioilio]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

This wouldn't be the first time a dealer has no clue and wants to start guessing at a problem...

They want $7000 for the repair. On top of that the car is throwing mixture codes 29E0. It all points to injectors but they insist on valve stem seals. Car has been there for a week and they had no clue untill yesterday. Once of a sudden they came up with valve stem seals.

[deansbimmer]

Originally Posted by vioilio

They want $7000 for the repair. On top of that the car is throwing mixture codes 29E0. It all points to injectors but they insist on valve stem seals. Car has been there for a week and they had no clue untill yesterday. Once of a sudden they came up with valve stem seals.

It is a big job, but the dealership still charges about twice what a good indy would charge to do the valve seals. Still, I would all but guarantee that's not your issue. They're grasping at straws.
The only way I could see it being the valve stem seals is if their failure has caused severe buildup on the intake valves which could impede airflow enough to cause airflow blockage. That could be checked with an inspection camera looking into the ports.

The code is fuel mixture related on one bank. Inconsistent, too rich, too lean, etc. The immediate response would be injectors. So if your injectors are older, they should be replaced to higher index anyway. It could also be your wastegate(s) not operating in proper time or your pre-cat o2 sensors. Many things could cause it. Need to monitor fuel trims, o2 readings, etc through ISTA software or similar. I say get far away from that dealership- they obviously have no clue and should stick to 3-series oil changes and general service- not ///M cars.

[TKR]

I had a 29E1 and similar experience from Dealer. They just had no clue, and after running their basic diagnostic they asked authorization for 5 hour labor ($900) for further investigation. I said no thanks and drove away.

Another dealer diagnosed immediately bad bank2 post cat o2 sensor. Swapped it myself and fault went away.

29E0 might be bank1, pre or post cat o2 sensor.

Or faulty injector can mess the air-fuel-mixture too..

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

Even if the valve stem seals were missing completely it would be highly unlikely that misfires would result. If you're experiencing misfires it is going to be something else. If your valve stem seals are leaking you will see oil smoke from the exhaust during startup and randomly during driving.

I've not heard of the S63 as being a chronic sufferer of valve seal failures like some other BMW engines.

Actually, while this may not be the cause of the misfires in this case, leaking valve stem seals sure can cause misfires/loss of performance. Mixing oil in the combustion chamber lowers the octane of fuel, reducing power and increasing the chance of knock. Enough oil and you can fowl the spark plugs with carbon and oil and cause misfires.

This is the reason people clean out the intake track of oil build up when getting the most performance out of the car. Oil in the combustion chamber is definitely determent for good engine running. Unavoidable however, but should be minimized.
-----------------
With all of that said, misfires are always caused by the same 3 things. 1) Ignition issues, 2) Fueling issues, 3) Compression. If your getting misfires the easiest test is to check and see if its some or all cylinders. If its only some, then I would swap coil packs from good to bad to see if the misfire follows. Its the easiest thing to check. If the misfire follows, I would replace the bad coil packs and replace your spark plugs. If the plugs are old and erroded, this can also cause misfires, when was the last time your car had its plugs replaced? This car needs them about every 30K miles. Also fuel injectors commonly fail on this car and are covered by warranty.

[deansbimmer]

OP was in contact with me for assistance and as of the last time we talked, he had replaced the coils and had not experienced misfires since. The plugs were clean- zero signs of oil contamination. Maybe he can chime in to update us.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

OP was in contact with me for assistance and as of the last time we talked, he had replaced the coils and had not experienced misfires since. The plugs were clean- zero signs of oil contamination. Maybe he can chime in to update us.

Oh thats great news!

BTW to add to the thread on valve stem failures. I've had the 4.8i (N62) engine and it did develop bad valve stems and became quite smokey. I've read that the N63 valve stems fail all the time and are even less reliable than the N62. I did a realoem parts check and learned that the S63 in the X5M uses the same valve stem part as the N63 :-(

N63 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_4180

S63 http://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/show...diagId=11_4180

So for the good news, on the S63. A lot of the reason the valve stems fail on these cars is bad chemistry and seal selection on BMWs part at least for longevity. All seals contain additives to make the seals elastic which allows them to do their job. The elasticity of a seal degrades over time as the seal additives are driven out of the seal by mainly heat and 2nd chemical reactions.

So even though the S63 has the same shitty seals, the engine runs at a lower temperature than the N63. The N63 operates at 106-108C at full temp. The S63 operates 93C-95C. This lower temp is enough to significantly reduce seal degradation. Its also why a lot of folks switch the N63/62 to low temp thermostats after a valve stem seal replacement. Also oil additives that restore seal elasticity do help.

[vioilio]

Originally Posted by deansbimmer

OP was in contact with me for assistance and as of the last time we talked, he had replaced the coils and had not experienced misfires since. The plugs were clean- zero signs of oil contamination. Maybe he can chime in to update us.

Correct! I have been diagnosed by BMW dealership with bad valve stem seals and $7000 for the repair. I said no thank you and just walked! The car did NOT smoke and it is not consuming oil. There was no trace of oil contamination on the spark plugs! Ordered new coils, installed them and no misfires ever since! Haven't really drove the car this past week but did all kind of different checks and let it idle for quite some time and all is good so far!

[m5james]

You'd have to search but there's a dude in NYC I think that was doing it for $2500.

[vioilio]

Originally Posted by m5james

You'd have to search but there's a dude in NYC I think that was doing it for $2500.

I think he was only doing that price on the M62 and N62 engines.

[vioilio]

UPDATE:
Today I have found the actual problem. It was the passenger side PCV vent pipe. It was not pushed in all the way into the intake manifold port. Truck is officially fixed!

[Thecastle]

Yeah pcv issues can cause these cars to smoke too. But if you do develop bad valve stem seals which I had on my last v8 BMW, I had good luck with atp-205 seal rejuvenator stopping the smoking.

The test is to fully warm the engine, let it idle for about 5 minutes then floor it and check for smoke in the rear view mirror or backup camera.

[m5james]

Maybe that should be added for preventative maintenance? You just run it after an oil change and leave it in until the next one or do you do it right before an oil change?

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by m5james

Maybe that should be added for preventative maintenance? You just run it after an oil change and leave it in until the next one or do you do it right before an oil change?

So, I have a good friend who has a Ph.D. In organic chemistry and worked in the petrochemical industry at BP and Total for years as a researcher. We talked about the high rate of valve stem seal failure issue on BMWs v8.

So the basic issue is that all seals on cars usually start with some substrate Viton, rubber, etc. but the base polymer lacks elasticity i.e. The ability of the material to deform and flow in to surface defects to seal the surfaces. So they add elasticizer to he material to make it flexible. So over time heat causes the vilotiale elasticizers to evaporate out of the seal causing it to lose its flexibility and stop sealing. This is one most people replace it. Of course the higher the heat the faster the loss of these volatiles, and it also depends on the properties of the oil, how much the oil attracts the movement of the elasticizers.

He said it is however possible to bath the seal in elasticizers and rejuvenate the seal. But his thoughts were they may penatrate the surface but are unlike to fully restore the seal unless they are continually exposed to the elasticizers.

So i asked about using one as preventive. He said it would work, but why add the extra cost? Of course he drives a 90s Honda Accord with a manual transmission and 275k miles, which never needed valve stem seals. But it has gone through head gaskets. His other car is a Porsche ;-)

Personally other than the cost, I don't think it's a bad idea to add a seal rejuvenator product before the seals fail. Especially since the s63/n63 use the same seals and are a constant issue on the n63. I think s63s will develop the same smoking issue over time, but they run at a lower temp so it will take longer than the 70k that is typical on the s62/63

[GMWNashville]

Valve seals while they won't cause a misfire they cause oil to burn generally on the exhaust side(due to heat) and therefore doesn't enter the cylinder to cause a misfire. The PCV issue stated above will certainly cause a running complaint though!

[m5james]

Originally Posted by Thecastle

So, I have a good friend who has a Ph.D. In organic chemistry and worked in the petrochemical industry at BP and Total for years as a researcher. We talked about the high rate of valve stem seal failure issue on BMWs v8.

So the basic issue is that all seals on cars usually start with some substrate Viton, rubber, etc. but the base polymer lacks elasticity i.e. The ability of the material to deform and flow in to surface defects to seal the surfaces. So they add elasticizer to he material to make it flexible. So over time heat causes the vilotiale elasticizers to evaporate out of the seal causing it to lose its flexibility and stop sealing. This is one most people replace it. Of course the higher the heat the faster the loss of these volatiles, and it also depends on the properties of the oil, how much the oil attracts the movement of the elasticizers.

He said it is however possible to bath the seal in elasticizers and rejuvenate the seal. But his thoughts were they may penatrate the surface but are unlike to fully restore the seal unless they are continually exposed to the elasticizers.

So i asked about using one as preventive. He said it would work, but why add the extra cost? Of course he drives a 90s Honda Accord with a manual transmission and 275k miles, which never needed valve stem seals. But it has gone through head gaskets. His other car is a Porsche ;-)

Personally other than the cost, I don't think it's a bad idea to add a seal rejuvenator product before the seals fail. Especially since the s63/n63 use the same seals and are a constant issue on the n63. I think s63s will develop the same smoking issue over time, but they run at a lower temp so it will take longer than the 70k that is typical on the s62/63

I'm all for preventative maintenance, I just wonder about real world usage vs how they're applied/used in videos, Seafoam for example. Soaking a chunk of carbon, in a dish, while completely immersed in this liquid is going to have WAY better results than as it washes/blows past the valves, in the combustion chamber, etc. Assuming the seals stay soaked while the engine is running, it's only likely to help while driving and it'll be of no help whatsoever as it's sitting in the oil pan when parked. I'll look into it on my next road trip where they're going to soaked for hours on end.

Just looked online to find some locally and came across this...now I'm curious if it's compatible with our seals.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2816155

[JMD]

Originally Posted by vioilio

Correct! I have been diagnosed by BMW dealership with bad valve stem seals and $7000 for the repair. I said no thank you and just walked! The car did NOT smoke and it is not consuming oil. There was no trace of oil contamination on the spark plugs! Ordered new coils, installed them and no misfires ever since! Haven't really drove the car this past week but did all kind of different checks and let it idle for quite some time and all is good so far!

Way to go! My first BMW,...'79 320i had bad valve stems! It burned oil like it was free!,...about 3/4 of a quart per tank of gas! It showed signs of smoke at high RPMs only, other than that,...the chrome bumper collected black soot from smoke as I drove it. This was circa 1985! The repair job then was at least $1500! That was to high for this Sgt of Marines at the time,....I resolved to keep a quart of oil on standby!

[JMD]

Originally Posted by vioilio

UPDATE:
Today I have found the actual problem. It was the passenger side PCV vent pipe. It was not pushed in all the way into the intake manifold port. Truck is officially fixed!

One would have thought the dealer could have caught this!,...easily!!

Something related,...I was at an area dealership a couple years ago,...and they had a X5 50i on the lot. I started it up for a potential test drive. The engine operated ok for a few minutes, then all of a sudden, a large cloud of Blue Smoke started bellowing from the passenger side exhaust! It was burn-out thick! I shut down the engine! No need for a test drive,..as that puppy had a serious issue!

It had to be embarrassing for the dealer!,...one of their vehicles for sale displaying such a problem.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by m5james

I'm all for preventative maintenance, I just wonder about real world usage vs how they're applied/used in videos, Seafoam for example. Soaking a chunk of carbon, in a dish, while completely immersed in this liquid is going to have WAY better results than as it washes/blows past the valves, in the combustion chamber, etc. Assuming the seals stay soaked while the engine is running, it's only likely to help while driving and it'll be of no help whatsoever as it's sitting in the oil pan when parked. I'll look into it on my next road trip where they're going to soaked for hours on end.

Just looked online to find some locally and came across this...now I'm curious if it's compatible with our seals.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2816155

All I can say is that atp-205 worked great on my n62 which has he same valve stem seals as the n63/s63. Mine smoked like a mofo, and I added it and smoking was totally gone for the 10k miles I kept the car. So it worked for me. I experimented with different fixes before trying this one and others worked but were not as good as this product.

Since he seals are all the same on BMW v8s I'd suspect it will work fine on the s63. Which i may be finding out. As I just dropped mine off at the dealer for smoking....... but this one is not showing any of the symptoms my n62 had. The m smoked after a full throttle pull and you let off the gas to idle. Hoping it's a bad pcv or turbo seal.