Porsche 991 vs 981

[Alfisti]

5-7K for a manual? I think it's more chief. Each to his own but I cannot speak highly enough of the cab, it feels more spacious, on the right road the air in your hair adds a lot to the experience and changing down a gear or two is a great noise.

[bosstones]

Just saying from what I've been seeing and trying to reconcile car mileage and options. USD, btw. Cannuck bucks would be more.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by tranquility

This is such an interesting video and the guy's pretty impressive, one of those ultimate gearheads. I personally never got the mystique of the 911 because the engine's in the wrong area haha but it keeps bewilderingly winning, e.g. wasn't it EVO's COTY just recently? I don't get it, are all the other manufacturers just that bad even though they have the engine placement advantage or is Porsche just that good in out-engineering everyone?

While I'm not saying that Porsche makes bad cars, a big part of their success is their very clever pricing strategy. They are essentially the Rolex of the car industry: not so expensive as to be completely unattainable to 99% of the population (like real supercars) but way too expensive for the "average person". As such, Porsche is the ultimate aspirational car for the upper middle class. A "typical" 911 driver is a retired dentist.

[tranquility]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

While I'm not saying that Porsche makes bad cars, a big part of their success is their very clever pricing strategy. They are essentially the Rolex of the car industry: not so expensive as to be completely unattainable to 99% of the population (like real supercars) but way too expensive for the "average person". As such, Porsche is the ultimate aspirational car for the upper middle class. A "typical" 911 driver is a retired dentist.

You're not wrong. I'm just amazed they still make great sportscars that beats many others even though it's in the rear.

[335i54n]

They are the only company that still appreciates engineering and is driver-focused. I think for what they are, it's pretty fair. I would have thought platform sharing and VW would have at least kept costs in check, but they never really strayed too far from that 3000-pound weight even with all the emission and safety regulations, where an m3 is now close to 4000-pounds. Unsprung and total weight loss mods are a lot more expensive than just adding power..

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by 335i54n

They are the only company that still appreciates engineering and is driver-focused. I think for what they are, it's pretty fair. I would have thought platform sharing and VW would have at least kept costs in check, but they never really strayed too far from that 3000-pound weight even with all the emission and safety regulations, where an m3 is now close to 4000-pounds. Unsprung and total weight loss mods are a lot more expensive than just adding power..

I don't think their prices are necessarily reflective of manufacturing costs.

[335i54n]

Manufacturing the car together is the ez part. If you have ever spent time trying to lighten your car, you will understand how insanely costly it can be. Engineering the car to be light, with airflow, flat under floors, brake ducting, lightweight materials, a oiling system for track, high QDR, and the ability to truly option your car to the extreme. Imo likes Ap vs. Brembo

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by 335i54n

Manufacturing the car together is the ez part. If you have ever spent time trying to lighten your car, you will understand how insanely costly it can be. Engineering the car to be light, with airflow, flat under floors, brake ducting, lightweight materials, a oiling system for track, high QDR, and the ability to truly option your car to the extreme. Imo likes Ap vs. Brembo

Oh yeah? A Miata is much lighter than a 718 or 911. It's also 3-4 times cheaper. So much for that theory.

[335i54n]

ok, now i get ur thinking. have a great day

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

Oh yeah? A Miata is much lighter than a 718 or 911. It's also 3-4 times cheaper. So much for that theory.

If you've ever worked on a 911 or Cayman/Boxster, you'd be impressed by how robust and heavy parts are on those cars. The exterior panels on my 987 Cayman (which essentially has the front end of a 997 911) are crazy thick. The panels feel twice as thick as the panels on my wife's 2020 4Runner. Even my 2016 M235 feels cheap in comparison. The chassis parts are robust and look to be cut and machined from blocks of aluminum. Everything on the Cayman has a very heavy and robust feel. Peel back plastic and carpet interior panels and they are HEAVY and very well insulated.

I test drove a 2023 Miata RF for an hour when looking at cars a couple of years ago. It is a light car, but much smaller than the 987/981/718 in terms of interior and storage space and it doesn't feel remotely has well put together. While on paper, my 265hp Cayman and the ND2 Miata have similar power to weights, but when driven, the Cayman feels way faster. Handling wise, stock to stock, it's not the same ball game and the Cayman is 11+ years older. The ND Miata is freaking awesome, especially the 2025 model, but Porsche 911s and Cayman/Boxsters are on a different level. You can get a new lower optioned Cayman Base for mid $70s. That's only twice the price of a 2024 Miata RF and is twice the car in terms of performance, quality, comfort, and usability, IMO.

Point being, 911s and Cayman/Boxsters could be a few hundred pounds lighter if Porsche wasn't so hell bent on making such solid cars. It's surprising to me that my fully loaded Cayman still is under 3000lbs with a full tank per the local truck scales.

[slilley]

Former 997.2 911 C2S owner, current 718 Cayman GTS4.0 owner, and former Miata NC owner. I track and autocross my cars, and these three cars couldn't be more different! Each is designed for a different purpose, and has a completely different feel - although the 911 and Cayman are similar except when driven at their limits. The Miata is a blast on back roads, but in it's OE-form it's a frustrating track vehicle with that suspension that's designed to be so much fun on the street. But for not a lot of money, it can be converted into a car that's much more fun at track and autoX with simple suspension upgrades. The Porsches - all Porsches - can be driven straight from the dealership to the track and they perform exceptionally well right out of the box. They are almost boring on the street, because they are so composed that they really have to be pushed for the same level of fun. Dollar for dollar though, nothing beats the fun of a Miata. I just wish they'd offer a more performance-oriented suspension from the factory.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

If you've ever worked on a 911 or Cayman/Boxster, you'd be impressed by how robust and heavy parts are on those cars. The exterior panels on my 987 Cayman (which essentially has the front end of a 997 911) are crazy thick.

That's because the 986/987 was designed in the 1990's. Cars from that era were made entirely out of steel (and relatively thick one, compared to modern cars). A BMW, Mercedes or Audi from that era will feel similarly "robust". In comparison, the 981 and 718, which use a lot of aluminum, do not have the same heavy duty feel.

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Point being, 911s and Cayman/Boxsters could be a few hundred pounds lighter if Porsche wasn't so hell bent on making such solid cars. It's surprising to me that my fully loaded Cayman still is under 3000lbs with a full tank per the local truck scales.

It's a small 2WD two-seater, made mostly out of aluminium, with a small 4 cylinder engine. 3000 lbs isn't all that impressive for that kind of car IMO.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by / / / M3

That's because the 986/987 was designed in the 1990's. Cars from that era were made entirely out of steel (and relatively thick one, compared to modern cars). A BMW, Mercedes or Audi from that era will feel similarly "robust". In comparison, the 981 and 718, which use a lot of aluminum, do not have the same heavy duty feel.

It's a small 2WD two-seater, made mostly out of aluminium, with a small 4 cylinder engine. 3000 lbs isn't all that impressive for that kind of car IMO.

The 987 was designed in the early 2000s, but yeah, it is old. The 987 has an aluminum hood. The 987 Cayman R also has aluminum door skins. The 981/718 have an aluminum hood, hatch, and door skins. The front fenders and the unibody exterior are steel. Portions of the 981/718 unibody also use aluminized steel, though there is not a ton of weight savings. On average, the 981/718, is around 50lbs lighter than the 987 and much of that weight saving came from the aluminum exterior panels and plastic side sill/side intake area.

I can't tell any difference in build quality/material thickness on the 981/718. They seem just as "heavy" and robust as my 987.

A Miata RF weighs around 2500lbs. A 987 Cayman weighs around 2950lbs. The current gen Miata is substantially shorter (18") and narrower (3.5") than the 987-718 Porsches. That certainly accounts for some of the weight differences. Put a Miata and 987-718 on a lift and look at how much more substantial the parts are on the Porsche and you'll see why they feel so much more solid. The Miata uses lots of stamped parts whereas many of the parts on the Porsches are not. The interior carpet on a Porsche is thick and of high quality especially when compared to the super thin and lightweight stuff used on a Miata. The carpeted 3" thick foam panels that cover the front and upper engine covers on my 987 weigh a whopping 41lbs total.

The Miata and 987-718 take different approaches to performance and quality. I'm not saying a brand new Porsche is worth the price for what you get, but I'd have to say an entry price of ~$39K for a commonly equipped Miata RF is pretty crazy too.

[/ / / M3]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The 987 was designed in the early 2000s, but yeah, it is old. The 987 has an aluminum hood. The 987 Cayman R also has aluminum door skins. The 981/718 have an aluminum hood, hatch, and door skins. The front fenders and the unibody exterior are steel. Portions of the 981/718 unibody also use aluminized steel, though there is not a ton of weight savings. On average, the 981/718, is around 50lbs lighter than the 987 and much of that weight saving came from the aluminum exterior panels and plastic side sill/side intake area.

I can't tell any difference in build quality/material thickness on the 981/718. They seem just as "heavy" and robust as my 987.

A Miata RF weighs around 2500lbs. A 987 Cayman weighs around 2950lbs. The current gen Miata is substantially shorter (18") and narrower (3.5") than the 987-718 Porsches. That certainly accounts for some of the weight differences. Put a Miata and 987-718 on a lift and look at how much more substantial the parts are on the Porsche and you'll see why they feel so much more solid. The Miata uses lots of stamped parts whereas many of the parts on the Porsches are not. The interior carpet on a Porsche is thick and of high quality especially when compared to the super thin and lightweight stuff used on a Miata. The carpeted 3" thick foam panels that cover the front and upper engine covers on my 987 weigh a whopping 41lbs total.

The Miata and 987-718 take different approaches to performance and quality. I'm not saying a brand new Porsche is worth the price for what you get, but I'd have to say an entry price of ~$39K for a commonly equipped Miata RF is pretty crazy too.

No experience with 986 or 987 but I have driven various iterations of the 981 and 718, including the 718 Spyder. Nothing wrong with those cars but to me they don't feel any more "solid" than any other high end German car.

As for weight, if you don't like the Miata comparison, how about the Supra? It's a couple of inches longer and wider than the Cayman but only 100 lbs heavier (if you compare 4 cylinder version of each car). Then you have the Toyota 86/Subaru BRZ, which is about the same width as the 718 Cayman but a few inches shorter. And about 200 lbs lighter.

Like I said, there is nothing particularly impressive about Porsche's weight. It's pretty average considering the size of the car.