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      10-23-2012, 08:18 PM   #1
Rygel XXV
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Bad surprise in the rain- is this normal?

Last night we had some rain in the SF Bay Area. While making a right turn from a stop, the rear suddenly broke loose and I had to counter-steer to get it back. DSC lit up the dash and I'm guessing the rear swung out at least four or five feet. Obviously I wasn't moving very fast so recovered easily, but that sure surprised the hell out of me.

I've owned AWD cars since 1992, but this is the first time I've had one with rear-wheel bias. Anyone know if slippage like this normal for cars with this kind of power distribution? I checked the tires and, while almost 4 years old, they still have a lot of tread on them. I also wonder if the Dinan torque addition may have contributed to this.

Any thoughts?
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      10-23-2012, 08:47 PM   #2
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One of the first heavy rains of the year? This used to happen when I lived in LA, people would be sliding all over the place during the first rains until those oil and grease spots dissipated.

Don't know of any reason the car would do this!
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      10-24-2012, 01:27 AM   #3
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It is called "aquaplanting effect" has nothing to do with car, actually
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      10-24-2012, 07:04 PM   #4
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aquaplaning effect starts over 80km/h
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      10-24-2012, 08:24 PM   #5
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It's normal to fishtail on this thing
It's very RWD-like car, unless you really provoke rear wheel spin
Have fun!
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      10-24-2012, 09:10 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8888vx6 View Post
aquaplaning effect starts over 80km/h
You can aquaplane at speeds substantially slower than 80 kph............
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      10-24-2012, 10:05 PM   #7
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How are your tires? I've had my X6 for over a year and also have the Dinan packages. I've had no control issues on wet or dry roads.
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      10-25-2012, 08:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Cranium View Post
You can aquaplane at speeds substantially slower than 80 kph............
Quote from Wiki
There is no precise equation to determine the speed at which a vehicle will aquaplane. Existing efforts have derived rules of thumb from empirical testing.[6][7] In general, cars aquaplane at speeds above 53 mph (72 km/h), where water ponds to a depth of at least 1/10 of an inch (2.5 mm) over a distance of 30 feet (9 meters) or more.
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      10-26-2012, 02:47 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by v8888vx6 View Post
Quote from Wiki
There is no precise equation to determine the speed at which a vehicle will aquaplane.
Exactly!

Aquaplaning means that your tires are no longer touching the pavement (or their contact is radically reduced) because the water has been forced between the tread and the pavement. You could aquaplane at 30 mph if your tires were bald and the puddle deep enough.

The key point is don't think that if you are going slower than 50 mph you are immune to aquaplaning.

Cheers.
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      10-26-2012, 06:54 PM   #10
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On the way to work I have to pass through a business park with lots of trees , grass,etc.
A couple days a week the sprinklers must run to long or something, this creates a nice puddle at the stop light. For grins I put in M1 and stomp on it and DSC lights up and back end comes loose a little. I would also try it with DSC disabled and back came loose a lot but sine I was ready was able to control it. It's a big heavy ass car and will come loose under some conditions.
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      10-29-2012, 03:57 PM   #11
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Thanks for the responses. The tires are old, but have good tread, so I'm guessing they weren't the problem. At this point, I'm hoping the grease from the rains was the cause, although I'm going to be extra careful on ski trips to Tahoe this year!
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      10-31-2012, 02:02 AM   #12
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Hey folks,

Just an FYI for anyone still interested in this thread. I just finished reading the reviews on Tire Rack for my tires: They are OEM Bridgestone Dueler 400 HT run flats. There are quite a few negative reviews concerning these tires in the wet, snow, and ice. I'm now a bit concerned myself about how well they'll do on our Tahoe trips.

Hopefully the reviews are a bit exaggerated, but given that I lost the rear in just a bit of rain, it might be worth doing some due diligence if you're on these shoes too. Anyway, be safe out there!
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      10-31-2012, 04:06 PM   #13
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Rygel XXV, please don't take this the wrong way. But...it all comes down to how much you know about your car, how much you know about handling a car in extreme conditions. Not so much about tires in this case. No tire will save you from physics, no matter how much or how good the traction control is , and whether it is 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive. I was driving around in a 1985 Buick LeSabre when I was young in Big Bear while it was snowing without chains and I was fine. Please remember that you do have ample of HPs to manage. Don't depend on the tire to save you, depend on your skills/knowlege instead.
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      11-01-2012, 03:41 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itsme123
Rygel XXV, please don't take this the wrong way. But...it all comes down to how much you know about your car, how much you know about handling a car in extreme conditions. Not so much about tires in this case. No tire will save you from physics, no matter how much or how good the traction control is , and whether it is 2 wheel drive or 4 wheel drive. I was driving around in a 1985 Buick LeSabre when I was young in Big Bear while it was snowing without chains and I was fine. Please remember that you do have ample of HPs to manage. Don't depend on the tire to save you, depend on your skills/knowlege instead.
I definitely agree. First rear-biased car I've owned, so may take some getting used to. This was just surprising since it really wasn't an "extreme" situation, just coming from a stop in light rain. I've driven over 20 years, 4 of which were with nasty New England winters, and taken countless ski trips, and this was a first. Hope I get it sorted by the time the *real* winter storms roll around!
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      11-01-2012, 05:51 PM   #15
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I have the 19" wheels and can honestly say that they have deteriorated significantly in terms of traction in the last 12K. The car is now pushing through turns in the rain and I've had a couple of experiences that have caused me to SLOW DOWN (yes, a good thing, but turns I was able to take at higher and safe speeds before are no longer doable).

I've lived with this beast for 15 months now and I know it pretty well. The change in its driveability (for the worse) is significant.

I'm suspecting the OP might be experiencing the same thing (his being with his rear tires, mine with the fronts).
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      11-01-2012, 06:02 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rygel XXV View Post
Last night we had some rain in the SF Bay Area. While making a right turn from a stop, the rear suddenly broke loose and I had to counter-steer to get it back. DSC lit up the dash and I'm guessing the rear swung out at least four or five feet. Obviously I wasn't moving very fast so recovered easily, but that sure surprised the hell out of me.

I've owned AWD cars since 1992, but this is the first time I've had one with rear-wheel bias. Anyone know if slippage like this normal for cars with this kind of power distribution? I checked the tires and, while almost 4 years old, they still have a lot of tread on them. I also wonder if the Dinan torque addition may have contributed to this.

Any thoughts?
Other than a greasy road, I wonder if you tires have hardened over time. Not knowing your particular make of tire, but the rubber has heat cycled a good few times over 4-years and the rubber compound could be harder, particularly when cold and in the rain. It is one of the reasons tire performance tails off over time, even when tread is still reasonable.

HighlandPete
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      11-03-2012, 05:53 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rygel XXV View Post
Hey folks,

Just an FYI for anyone still interested in this thread. I just finished reading the reviews on Tire Rack for my tires: They are OEM Bridgestone Dueler 400 HT run flats. There are quite a few negative reviews concerning these tires in the wet, snow, and ice. I'm now a bit concerned myself about how well they'll do on our Tahoe trips.

Hopefully the reviews are a bit exaggerated, but given that I lost the rear in just a bit of rain, it might be worth doing some due diligence if you're on these shoes too. Anyway, be safe out there!
Crap, just did my "due diligence" last night - what I thought was normal all season tire performance last winter looks instead to just be a crappy tire (I have Dueler 400s as well). Seeing as how the car is performing right now in the rain, I'm thinking about picking up a set of Nokian WRG2s and swapping them out (saving my D400s for lease return). Not worth the risk.

Now have to decide if I want runflats or not...
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      11-17-2012, 02:57 AM   #18
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Angry I've f-ing had it with these tires.

Rained again today in the SF Bay Area, and again lost traction. Coming into a busy, tight 90-degree right turn, slowed to about 20 mph, foot off both the gas and the brake into the turn...and to my surprise the beast starts going motherf-ing sideways. I could tell it wasn't going far, so didn't panic or go for any pedals, just let it slip and then gave it gas when I felt the tires re-grip. To the oncoming traffic, probably just looked like I gave it a wide turn, but for a second it may have looked like I was just going to gently slide into them.

This was a road near my work, which I've taken innumerable times, both in the rain and in good conditions. I've never had anything like this happen before at this particular road. At this point, I'm pretty convinced these tires have to go.

doug_999 or anyone else have any suggestions for All-Season RFTs? Haven't found many choices at the usual sites (i.e. Tire Rack, Wheel Works) and I absolutely will not get another set of the Duelers.
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      11-17-2012, 02:24 PM   #19
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If you really do travel to Tahoe I would strongly recommend the Nokia WRG2s. If however that's more of an occasional thing and you wont' be doing it much in the winter, then everyone really seems to like the Continental DWS tires. I don't think they are great in snow, but still probably better than the tires we have. I would suspect the Continentals are better performing than the Nokians in the dry and I know the Nokians are better performing than the Continenals in the snow. Do you have the spare tire? If so you can get the tires in non-runflats - people say that improves the ride even more!
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      11-17-2012, 08:29 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rygel XXV View Post
Rained again today in the SF Bay Area, and again lost traction. Coming into a busy, tight 90-degree right turn, slowed to about 20 mph, foot off both the gas and the brake into the turn...and to my surprise the beast starts going motherf-ing sideways
First point...stop blaming the tires for bad driving technique. Feet of BOTH pedals? Why? If you are in a 4x4 and want to keep the BEST CONTROL, you want to be UNDER POWER. If you HAD been under power, the truck would not have reacted that way.
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      11-18-2012, 12:41 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndabunka View Post
First point...stop blaming the tires for bad driving technique. Feet of BOTH pedals? Why? If you are in a 4x4 and want to keep the BEST CONTROL, you want to be UNDER POWER. If you HAD been under power, the truck would not have reacted that way.
He has taken the turn before - in similar conditions with and/without gas - it is the tires. Even so, do you really power into a 90 degree turn in the rain? No - because if you do, you will push right through the corner with lots of under-steer. You can certainly power OUT of the turn, but don't even think about powering into it.
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      11-18-2012, 10:11 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug_999 View Post
He has taken the turn before - in similar conditions with and/without gas - it is the tires. Even so, do you really power into a 90 degree turn in the rain? No - because if you do, you will push right through the corner with lots of under-steer. You can certainly power OUT of the turn, but don't even think about powering into it.
It's a 4x4, not a front wheel drive vehicle. As soon as the front started to slip, the rears would have more traction but then again I agree that nobody SHOULD be trying to fly around a corner in the rain anyway but not certain 20MPH would be anything I would consider fast so it probably is just his tires
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