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      10-18-2017, 07:59 AM   #67
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      10-18-2017, 08:02 AM   #68
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Hollywood protecting Hollywood.

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment...criticism.html

NOW they're sorry.
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      10-18-2017, 09:21 AM   #69
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Weinstein, like Trump, is an example of our rotten institutions. They are not the cause. The only way to fix the problem is to fix the institution, although that starts by making an example out of people like him.
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      10-18-2017, 10:26 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I've seen the damage people like this do first hand and up close way too often. Anything that serves to minimize their conduct deserves to be called out and I don't feel the slightest bit of concern for calling you out.
No one is minimizing the conduct of Weinstein. He is trash. Whats being exposed is way bigger than him.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Equating victims of sexual predation with those who "sleep their way to the top" is bullshit and your equivocation doesn't mask your meaning.
I really don't mean to offend you by saying this, but plenty of woman were happy to make the trade. I'm sorry but thats true. Ill go further and say many actresses (and actors) even instigated the idea to get a part in exchange for sex. Its no different then gold digging which is a very real phenomenon. I've seen it in person more times then I can count. Its a two way street.

I have a personal friend who had a woman remove the condom from a trash can after sex and impregnate herself with the semen from it. She bragged to her friends how she did it to a "millionaire" and never has to work again. Poor delicate flower, or methodical predator?

The whole argument that a female actresses is somehow an injured doe on the serengeti in Hollywood simply isn't true.

I feel for the victims of rape and sexual assault which I should add happens to BOTH men and woman (yet somehow this seems to be a "female victim only" topic.) I DON'T condone it, and the perpetrators should go to prison. That said not everything being uncovered here is sexual assault or rape, but rather a toxic culture that is perpetuated by all involved. BTW those that said nothing, but knew were also involved, but couldn't risk giving up the drug hollywood was feeding into their veins.

I for one find it fascinating to watch it crumble and see everyone pay their PR teams to carefully try and protect their personal brands. I personally believe (just my opinion) that many of the people denying they knew anything were probably directly involved (both male and female).

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Have you even read this thread! You take issue with me but OP is fine even though he basically said everything short of rape is OK, they deserved it. And you wonder why I'm not impressed?
I think I might give woman more credit then you do. I believe both men and woman are strong enough to turn down an offer which involves sex if they decided they don't want to partake. I didn't say anyone deserved anything. I said I don't feel sorry for the people in hollywood involved in this unless they were raped or sexually assaulted. I insinuated that for every 1 woman speaking out about turning down an offer I was curious to know how many made the decision to accept one, or even instigate the idea themselfs. Im going to go out on a lim and guess that ration is probably 100/1.

Im sorry, but I refuse to accept that only the men in hollywood are monsters, and woman are victims that had no choice if they went through with an offer. Thats bullshit.
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      10-18-2017, 10:49 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Here's a question:
If a prominent producer tells an aspiring actress, "Have sex with me, and you will get this role. But if you don't, you'll never get any role anywhere ever again," how much blame goes to the actress if she agrees to it? A simple percentage of blame will suffice as an answer.
The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.
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      10-18-2017, 11:00 AM   #72
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It seems I need to say this again. The original post says that rape's not OK, but that the others probably deserved what they got. From there, pages of posts without a single person (until me) calling that out. Sassicaia , I've read your response ... it's pure horseshit. You said what you said which is that women sometimes deserve to be sexually harassed.

From there, no one calls the OP out but gets into this stupid debate about whether what Clinton was accused of is worse or better than Trump. Who cares?

Some of you are parents and here's the truth: your daughters will be victims of sexual harassment (and other sexual misconduct). Guaranteed. And it is attitudes like those present in this thread that will explain why they don't feel empowered to stand up against it and why so many of them will engage in misguided self-recrimination and self-loathing over what they did to bring it on themselves.

As for these:

I believe both men and woman are strong enough to turn down an offer which involves sex if they decided they don't want to partake.

The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.


The most generous thing I can say about you is that you don't have the slightest fucking clue about what you're talking about.
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      10-18-2017, 11:24 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.
He's not just a scumbag; it's also illegal. So how can you say that it's 100% her fault, when what he did was break the law?
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      10-18-2017, 11:26 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Follow-up question #2:

If a prominent producer tells an aspiring actress, "Have sex with me, and you will get this role. But if you don't, I will kill you," how much blame goes to the actress if she agrees to it?
If her life is really at stake - 0%. Life and death decisions are far different from career decisions.
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      10-18-2017, 11:29 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. I have raised two daughters that have grown to adulthood in their 40s. They are wonderful people. They would never have chosen to have sex to advance their careers. Never. You are way over the top and need to quit calling people names and slandering them just because they don't agree with you.
Do you not understand that there's a continuum here? That sexual harassment is not "having sex to advance their careers"? And, you seem to be more interested in calling me out than bothering to read what I said. I never said, remotely, the words you're putting in my mouth. I never said that your daughters (or anyone else's) would have to sleep with people to advance their careers. Suggesting I said that is a figment of your imagination.

What I said was that women are guaranteed to face some form of sexual harassment at some point. I stand by that. If somehow your daughters didn't experience it ... that's blind dumb luck and atypical. Until men start loudly condemning sexual harassment, that will never change. This isn't about whether you agree with me (trust me, I could care less what anyone on anonymous forum thinks of me), this is about saying what needs to be said and that is that the attitudes in this thread are exactly why men in power positions are able to get away with serial sexual harassment without consequences.
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      10-18-2017, 11:31 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
As for these:

I believe both men and woman are strong enough to turn down an offer which involves sex if they decided they don't want to partake.

The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.


The most generous thing I can say about you is that you don't have the slightest fucking clue about what you're talking about.
So...in the first part it is your considered opinion that women are not strong enough to turn down any offer which also involves sex then? Since, you know, as you say, he doesn't have a clue what he is talking about, the opposite of what he said must be true right?

And in the second, you don't think the actress has any choice in the matter then? Basically like forcible rape then I suppose?

I find it ironic that you say certain others do not have a clue what they're talking about. How about you just acknowledge that their opinion differs from yours and stop getting so riled up that people don't see life exactly through the same lens you do. It doesn't make them wrong, you'd do well to consider whether you are as right as you seem to always think you are.

Of course, that would take a mature approach to the situation wouldn't it...
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      10-18-2017, 11:38 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
If her life is really at stake - 0%. Life and death decisions are far different from career decisions.
I changed my post above, because I realized I didn't need a second fact situation. Back to the fact situation where the producer coerced the actress into having sex with threat of blacklisting:

He's not just a scumbag; it's also illegal. So how can you say that it's 100% her fault, when what he did was break the law?

[Edit note: Yes, blacklisting is illegal by statute in more than half of states. In California, it's Sections 1050-1053 of the Labor Code]
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      10-18-2017, 11:46 AM   #78
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Guys, what about this logic. If you had a family that you had to support, you lost your job, and your daughter has large medical bills, and you really have very few options. But you have information that could bring down the president, would you take Larry Flynt up on his offer? Granted, it would be a dilemma all the way around, but would you? Obviously, the one who has the money, is the one who calls the dances, if you would. I believe that winstein had this very same power, and obviously took advantage of it, for obvious reasons. I know not everyone is put in situations where they have to make such difficult choices, but in cinema history, the casting couch has always been a prevalent subject. And if it were my daughter put in a situation like this, I would be livid, but it would be her choice, depending on her own needs, and or greed.
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      10-18-2017, 11:53 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
So...in the first part it is your considered opinion that women are not strong enough to turn down any offer which also involves sex then?
You're caught up in one element of the Weinstein mess and it obscures my point (which is twofold). The first is that the issue of sex for advancement is only one of the evils of Weinstein and I absolutely do believe that women are strong enough to reject those advances. However, Weinstein also committed serial sexual harassment of women which is commonplace, routine, and insidious behaviour that exists in almost every workplace. That's what I'm speaking to and what is being glossed over and ignored.

The second thing is, and what is fueling my tone, is to go back to the original post where the OP said "Certainly the girls that said they were raped get a pass and I'll feel sorry for. Everyone else made their own bed IMO. No one (other than me) has said one word about what a vile statement that is. That every form of sexual misconduct against a women is deserved unless it crosses the line into rape. I've highlighted it now three or four times and no one seems inclined to call it out for what it is. Whether it's by omission or commission, the silence completely serves to endorse the idea that if women get sexually harassed, they deserved it.

This isn't a matter of a difference of opinion. It is simply outrageous that I'm the one being singled out for argument when that type of statement is passed over. Your silence, and everyone else's, speaks volumes about where people seem to draw the line at acceptable conduct.
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      10-18-2017, 11:56 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by are0lies View Post
Guys, what about this logic. If you had a family that you had to support, you lost your job, and your daughter has large medical bills, and you really have very few options. But you have information that could bring down the president, would you take Larry Flynt up on his offer? Granted, it would be a dilemma all the way around, but would you? Obviously, the one who has the money, is the one who calls the dances, if you would. I believe that winstein had this very same power, and obviously took advantage of it, for obvious reasons. I know not everyone is put in situations where they have to make such difficult choices, but in cinema history, the casting couch has always been a prevalent subject. And if it were my daughter put in a situation like this, I would be livid, but it would be her choice, depending on her own needs, and or greed.
I think it's different (or at least what I'm talking about is different). I'm talking about situations where someone in a position of power is using coercion, blacklisting, extortion and/or blackmailing to get sex, i.e. situations where the victim reasonably believes that he/she did not have a choice. And in those situations, the law (especially in California) generally falls in favor of the victim. It's a form of sexual assault/rape.

What's curious is that there are those on this thread that believe that the victim is 100% to blame in this scenario.
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      10-18-2017, 12:03 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.
Let me also throw this at you:

A boss at the workplace asks an employee to have sex with him, otherwise she will be fired. Whose at fault if she complies?

[If you say the employee, I wonder if your HR department would agree with you.]
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      10-18-2017, 12:03 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
It seems I need to say this again. The original post says that rape's not OK, but that the others probably deserved what they got. From there, pages of posts without a single person (until me) calling that out. Sassicaia , I've read your response ... it's pure horseshit. You said what you said which is that women sometimes deserve to be sexually harassed.

From there, no one calls the OP out but gets into this stupid debate about whether what Clinton was accused of is worse or better than Trump. Who cares?

Some of you are parents and here's the truth: your daughters will be victims of sexual harassment (and other sexual misconduct). Guaranteed. And it is attitudes like those present in this thread that will explain why they don't feel empowered to stand up against it and why so many of them will engage in misguided self-recrimination and self-loathing over what they did to bring it on themselves.

As for these:

I believe both men and woman are strong enough to turn down an offer which involves sex if they decided they don't want to partake.

The actress has a choice - 100% of her decision is on her. It's a bad situation, but it is her choice. The person is a scumbag for putting her in that situation, but it is her choice in the end. People are forced to make hard decisions every day.


The most generous thing I can say about you is that you don't have the slightest fucking clue about what you're talking about.
A lot of us care about the current tie in to how the Democratic party keeps trying to elevate themselves as some sort of champion towards women's equality and rights.

So let me break this down for you. Here's a link I've posted in my original reply in this thread:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/15/n...stigation.html

You have Ambra Battilana going to the authorities about Weinstein's sexual assault on her. NYPD wires her up and Weinstein incriminates himself by admitting he did it. Then you have the Manhattan prosecutor Vance decline to prosecute. A short time later, Weinstein's lawyer at the time provides a donation to Vance's campaign. So you have someone who stood up against this highly connected and powerful individual which resulted in this massive cover up to protect him.

Then recently, Farrow wants to go public with the news story he put together about Weinstein's predatory activities. NBC executives refuse to run the story under the guise that it was not complete or reportable. The same media outlet that leaked out the hot mic recording of Trump and Billy Bush 2 days before a presidential debate.

Then you have Clinton being silent for almost 6 days about the public exposing of Weinstein. The same person that whined and cried about how she was discriminated against/disadvantaged during the presidential election because she's a woman. The same person that was throwing the accusers of her husband about his sexual misconduct under the bus.

There's a whole lot more to this than just a simple highly placed creep getting his rocks off because he had the power to do so over women trying to advance in their industry.

And I find it funny since I posted my reply spelling out how this stinks to all high hell with Democratic party finger prints all over it that the "well Trump...." crowd has been silent.
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      10-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
The second thing is, and what is fueling my tone, is to go back to the original post where the OP said "Certainly the girls that said they were raped get a pass and I'll feel sorry for. Everyone else made their own bed IMO. No one (other than me) has said one word about what a vile statement that is. That every form of sexual misconduct against a women is deserved unless it crosses the line into rape. I've highlighted it now three or four times and no one seems inclined to call it out for what it is. Whether it's by omission or commission, the silence completely serves to endorse the idea that if women get sexually harassed, they deserved it.

This isn't a matter of a difference of opinion. It is simply outrageous that I'm the one being singled out for argument when that type of statement is passed over. Your silence, and everyone else's, speaks volumes about where people seem to draw the line at acceptable conduct.
Taken in context with the rest of the post, I took the 'other forms of sexual harassment' to be implied by the word "raped" in the OP. It's pretty clear to me that the OP doesn't condone that behavior, and that his (and others) lack of empathy is only towards people who chose to engage in the practice.

Relax a bit, you're getting yourself worked up over nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoy View Post
Let me also throw this at you:

A boss at the workplace asks an employee to have sex with him, otherwise she will be fired. Whose at fault if she complies?

[If you say the employee, I wonder if your HR department would agree with you.]
That's a different scenario though, Weinstein (presumably) proposed that the he would hire the actress if she had sex with him. There was no employee/employer relationship yet. Actress could walk away and lose nothing, or choose to accept the terms of employment.
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      10-18-2017, 12:42 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fravel View Post
Taken in context with the rest of the post, I took the 'other forms of sexual harassment' to be implied by the word "raped" in the OP. It's pretty clear to me that the OP doesn't condone that behavior, and that his (and others) lack of empathy is only towards people who chose to engage in the practice.

Relax a bit, you're getting yourself worked up over nothing.


At best, he is incredibly naive, but I don't actually think he is. He clearly thinks that most successful women in Hollywood have slept their way to the top and therefore their complaints about being harassed by Weinstein (and others) need to be discounted. He then compounds it by saying, quite clearly, that if they are victims of sexual harassment ... they deserved it.

You and I have a difference of opinion about what he meant. Fair enough. But, that's partly an issue of nuance in the way we're parsing his words. It doesn't excuse the impression this thread leaves that Weinstein is deplorable because he may have raped women. It should, in my opinion, be that Weinstein is deplorable for the entire spectrum of his alleged misconduct. Instead, sexual harassment in general is being treated as a non-sequitor and is being trivialized and, in a few cases, being turned into victim blaming/shaming.
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      10-18-2017, 01:51 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
At best, he is incredibly naive, but I don't actually think he is. He clearly thinks that most successful women in Hollywood have slept their way to the top and therefore their complaints about being harassed by Weinstein (and others) need to be discounted. He then compounds it by saying, quite clearly, that if they are victims of sexual harassment ... they deserved it.

You and I have a difference of opinion about what he meant. Fair enough. But, that's partly an issue of nuance in the way we're parsing his words. It doesn't excuse the impression this thread leaves that Weinstein is deplorable because he may have raped women. It should, in my opinion, be that Weinstein is deplorable for the entire spectrum of his alleged misconduct. Instead, sexual harassment in general is being treated as a non-sequitor and is being trivialized and, in a few cases, being turned into victim blaming/shaming.
I'm not sure you can take silence as affirmation that we all think sexual harassment is ok. It isn't. So I'll say that, as though it really needed to be said.

But I'm curious, when these "transactions" we'll call them were going down - were you present? Do you honestly believe that all women are these innocent flowers who would never consider using sex to get ahead? Do you know that they were not the ones initiating?

Accordingly, I take some issue with the "victim" card that I've seen in this thread. I'm not so sure they're all victims. Some are, no doubt. The ones that have come forward are the ones we know about. But if others made the choice to sleep with the guy, it does seem to be a choice. Its not rape, and not harassment. And I don't see them as a victim. While I disagree with the morality of the whole thing, it is still a transaction where both received something of value. Whether I like it or not or support it is different. But pretending that this was completely one sided in all cases doesn't seem to be correct.

There is no doubt sexual harassment still occurs today, and probably most of it is never brought forward. And I'd support any reasonable means of reducing this such that it is no longer an issue.

But I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request to pretend they are all victims of sexual harassment.
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      10-18-2017, 02:32 PM   #86
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Guys, here is an article from the Huffington Post, if you care to look through it, but it does mention the two sides of the argument being discussed here. While Weinstein's actions are certainly nothing new, in this day and age, there is little reason to condone such actions. The, just as disgusting, people were the ones that fed off of him, like Remora fish (fish that attach themselves to sharks).
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...b0ca9f483a0fb2
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      10-18-2017, 03:07 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joekerr View Post
I'm not sure you can take silence as affirmation that we all think sexual harassment is ok. It isn't. So I'll say that, as though it really needed to be said.

But I'm curious, when these "transactions" we'll call them were going down - were you present? Do you honestly believe that all women are these innocent flowers who would never consider using sex to get ahead? Do you know that they were not the ones initiating?

Accordingly, I take some issue with the "victim" card that I've seen in this thread. I'm not so sure they're all victims. Some are, no doubt. The ones that have come forward are the ones we know about. But if others made the choice to sleep with the guy, it does seem to be a choice. Its not rape, and not harassment. And I don't see them as a victim. While I disagree with the morality of the whole thing, it is still a transaction where both received something of value. Whether I like it or not or support it is different. But pretending that this was completely one sided in all cases doesn't seem to be correct.

There is no doubt sexual harassment still occurs today, and probably most of it is never brought forward. And I'd support any reasonable means of reducing this such that it is no longer an issue.

But I'm disinclined to acquiesce to your request to pretend they are all victims of sexual harassment.
To be clear, I didn't suggest that it was completely one sided "in all cases" nor did I suggest that "all" were victims of sexual harassment. But, I think it's fairly clear that a large number of women were and the number is immaterial to the odiousness of conduct. It is more than a statistical blip.

Joekerr made a glib comment in the whore thread about my "expertise" on the subject. Unfortunately, and I wish it wasn't true, I am an expert. A great deal of my work since 2000 has involved workplace investigations into employee misconduct. Advising/conducting investigations, determining facts and probabilities, assessing culpability, recommending disciplinary sanction, and managing the resulting litigation (labour arbitration, commercial arbitration, wrongful dismissal suits, and human rights complaints). I have been involved in dozens of cases where women have been sexually harassed and have felt powerless to stop it because of the power imbalance at play. You have no idea how many times I have sat in a room listening to their stories, invariably laced with self-recrimination and self-loathing for wondering what they did to bring in on themselves, and felt totally inadequate because, as a man, all I could offer was apologetic words and that they may have to relive the whole thing in front of a trier of fact in some sort of hearing.

Sexual harassment in the workplace is pervasive. Recent studies have said that one-third of women aged 18-34 have been sexually harassed at work. 84% of women have been subject to unwelcome sexually explicit commentary in the workplace (and that is to be distinguished from consensual workplace banter). One survey says that 44% of women have experienced "unwelcome touching". Another says 25% of women have received uninvited and unwelcome sexually explicit emails and texts. My own experience aligns with this, albeit more likely at two extremes: a typical blue collar male dominated workplace and managers/senior manager with power and authority over women.

I find the fact is that the OP's offensive quote was immediately rationalized, that this turned into a Trump vs. Clinton debate, and that the severity of sexual misconduct has been discounted by abstraction and obfuscation to be offensive. It's offensive because it all serves to discount the inherent violence of sexual harassment and; until we as men stop making it acceptable by our actions in this respect, the Weinstein's of the world will never stop.
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      10-18-2017, 03:21 PM   #88
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I'm not reading this thread through. Fravel and few others has read my story on this topic (before Weinstein came out) so let's be real for a sec, you guys want to know how it feels?
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