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      08-28-2008, 04:15 PM   #1
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Everyone weigh in

I did not realize how wrong most folks are about the X3/5/6 being heavy and gas hogs.

People seem to think the X6 is a porker much like the X5. I say they are dead wrong.

Let's check some weights.

4000lbs - 3 series vert
4400lbs - M6 vert
4300lbs - 650 vert (wooh, the M6 vert weight 100lbs more. )
4800lbs - X6 3.5, 4 wheel drive performance truck
4000lbs - X3

The biggest porkers in BMW's lineup is the 3 and 6 series verts. The 3 and 6 verts weigh MORE than an X3 for gosh sakes.

Is it me or is there something wrong when an X3 SUV weighs less than a 3 series convertible?

There is also something wrong when an M6 vert weighs two adults less than an X5/6.

I acknowledge the X series are trucks, 4 wheel drive utility vehicles. But gosh, what I can accept is an M3/6 vert weighing close to the same and burning more gas.

Rant over.
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      08-28-2008, 04:51 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103 View Post
I did not realize how wrong most folks are about the X3/5/6 being heavy and gas hogs.

People seem to think the X6 is a porker much like the X5. I say they are dead wrong.

Let's check some weights.

4000lbs - 3 series vert
4400lbs - M6 vert
4300lbs - 650 vert (wooh, the M6 vert weight 100lbs more. )
4800lbs - X6 3.5, 4 wheel drive performance truck
4000lbs - X3

The biggest porkers in BMW's lineup is the 3 and 6 series verts. The 3 and 6 verts weigh MORE than an X3 for gosh sakes.

Is it me or is there something wrong when an X3 SUV weighs less than a 3 series convertible?

There is also something wrong when an M6 vert weighs two adults less than an X5/6.

I acknowledge the X series are trucks, 4 wheel drive utility vehicles. But gosh, what I can accept is an M3/6 vert weighing close to the same and burning more gas.

Rant over.
Well, there's a few things I'd like to mention. The 335i vert weighs about 3950 lbs., and the X3 3.0si weighs about 4050 lbs.

The thing is, they are porkers. All of them. If someone says an X6 is a porker, they're right.

Also, nobody is saying that an M6 vert gets good gas mileage. Not to mention that's not exactly a fair comparison (or a comparison at all), given it has a 5L V10 making 507hp.
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      08-28-2008, 05:01 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
Well, there's a few things I'd like to mention. The 335i vert weighs about 3950 lbs., and the X3 3.0si weighs about 4050 lbs.

The thing is, they are porkers. All of them. If someone says an X6 is a porker, they're right.

Also, nobody is saying that an M6 vert gets good gas mileage. Not to mention that's not exactly a fair comparison (or a comparison at all), given it has a 5L V10 making 507hp.
I guess my point is a few hundred pounds separate these cars, not thousands of lbs as one might expect.
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      08-28-2008, 05:07 PM   #4
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well as you know the verts all need more support than the coupe versions do

also, bmw has done a great job in hiding the x6's weight and compared to my older 4.6is it's a feather so i don't really know what the fuss is all about

and am sure all the people making a big deal out of it have probably never seen one in person
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      08-28-2008, 06:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103 View Post
4000lbs - 3 series vert
4400lbs - M6 vert
4300lbs - 650 vert (wooh, the M6 vert weight 100lbs more. )
4800lbs - X6 3.5, 4 wheel drive performance truck
4000lbs - X3
.
The verts being close to X6/3.5 doesn't surprise me that much. But the weight of the 3 vert and the x3 being that close to an X6 does.
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      08-29-2008, 02:33 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by dmlgc View Post
The verts being close to X6/3.5 doesn't surprise me that much. But the weight of the 3 vert and the x3 being that close to an X6 does.
400/800 lbs isn't what I'd consider "close" lol.
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      08-29-2008, 08:44 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
400/800 lbs isn't what I'd consider "close" lol.
Nope. big difference between 2 tons and 2-1/2 tons.
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      08-29-2008, 09:05 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103 View Post
I did not realize how wrong most folks are about the X3/5/6 being heavy and gas hogs.

People seem to think the X6 is a porker much like the X5. I say they are dead wrong.

Let's check some weights.

4000lbs - 3 series vert
4400lbs - M6 vert
4300lbs - 650 vert (wooh, the M6 vert weight 100lbs more. )
4800lbs - X6 3.5, 4 wheel drive performance truck
4000lbs - X3

The biggest porkers in BMW's lineup is the 3 and 6 series verts. The 3 and 6 verts weigh MORE than an X3 for gosh sakes.

Is it me or is there something wrong when an X3 SUV weighs less than a 3 series convertible?

There is also something wrong when an M6 vert weighs two adults less than an X5/6.

I acknowledge the X series are trucks, 4 wheel drive utility vehicles. But gosh, what I can accept is an M3/6 vert weighing close to the same and burning more gas.

Rant over.
Interesting info.I've never paid much attention to the actual weight of a car I've owned or considered owning.What I DO look at is the weight to power ratio and weight to torque ratio.A much more relevant comparison if your into high performance driving.Basically...how much overall weight per each 1hp and per each 1 lb/ft of torque does the car need to push around.The torque comparison is very relevant...it's what you "feel" in the seat of the pants.Many cars "even out" in a comparison when these two ratio's are applied.Make no mistake....weight matters...just ask any automotive engineer.All the car companies are "trying" to take weight out.Some do it better than others.Thanks! PalBay
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      08-29-2008, 09:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
I've never paid much attention to the actual weight of a car I've owned or considered owning.
All right Palbay it is time to go on a diet
remember every bit helps
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      08-29-2008, 09:45 AM   #10
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Colin Chapman (Lotus founder) used to say "add lightness". But that was in the days before power everything, four-wheel-drive, safety 'cages', 20-inch wheels, air conditioning, etc. etc. etc. Almost every modern vehicle is "too heavy" -- the question being: What is a "correct" weight? The Escalade weighs 7,000 pounds and is a Consumer Reports Best Buy. The X6 could probably be quite easily reduced by 1,000 pounds as long as most parts were made of carbon fiber and nobody minded paying $250,000 for one.

The problem with weight is that it is geometric: as the car gets heavier it needs tougher suspension pieces which themselves are heavier; a bigger engine to move it around, also heavier; bigger, heavier wheels with bigger, heavier tires to safely support all that weight; and so on. As I said, all these problems can be easily solved with lots of (a) carbon fiber, (b) titanium, and (c) dollars. Either that or we all drive round in smart cars looking like dweebs.
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      08-29-2008, 10:07 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bimmer Loyalist View Post
400/800 lbs isn't what I'd consider "close" lol.
If the cars were 2000 pounds different I would agree with you but I consider 400/800 to be close considering the size of those and the size of the X6.

My wife has a 330 (not vert) and when both cars are parked in the garage next to each other the X6 is behemoth in size, looking at them parked next to each other I would not expect the 330 to be even within a 1000 pounds of the X6.
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      08-29-2008, 10:28 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Suzie's Dad View Post
Colin Chapman (Lotus founder) used to say "add lightness". But that was in the days before power everything, four-wheel-drive, safety 'cages', 20-inch wheels, air conditioning, etc. etc. etc. Almost every modern vehicle is "too heavy" -- the question being: What is a "correct" weight? The Escalade weighs 7,000 pounds and is a Consumer Reports Best Buy. The X6 could probably be quite easily reduced by 1,000 pounds as long as most parts were made of carbon fiber and nobody minded paying $250,000 for one.

The problem with weight is that it is geometric: as the car gets heavier it needs tougher suspension pieces which themselves are heavier; a bigger engine to move it around, also heavier; bigger, heavier wheels with bigger, heavier tires to safely support all that weight; and so on. As I said, all these problems can be easily solved with lots of (a) carbon fiber, (b) titanium, and (c) dollars. Either that or we all drive round in smart cars looking like dweebs.
Well said...I'm very curious as to where the X5 and X6 "M"'s will fall in weight.One of my plant contacts said that the "M" division is going to be the standard bearer for the "New Green" "Efficient Dynamic's" at BMW.Don't laugh...it's true.You'll hear more about it as time goes by.If they can make "M" cars fast and light...why not production cars? The "M" division will become the testbed for Efficient Dynamic's along w/ learnings from F1 racing....which is pushing green real hard.We'll all pay more for all this "Green Technology"...but maybe we can keep our TTV8!!!! Thanks! PalBay
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      08-29-2008, 10:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Well said...I'm very curious as to where the X5 and X6 "M"'s will fall in weight.One of my plant contacts said that the "M" division is going to be the standard bearer for the "New Green" "Efficient Dynamic's" at BMW.Don't laugh...it's true.You'll hear more about it as time goes by.If they can make "M" cars fast and light...why not production cars? The "M" division will become the testbed for Efficient Dynamic's along w/ learnings from F1 racing....which is pushing green real hard.We'll all pay more for all this "Green Technology"...but maybe we can keep our TTV8!!!! Thanks! PalBay
I think the green term is misleading. It does no good for a car to have minimal pollutants if is only gets 20MPG.

Green to me means less pollutants and 30MPG or better city driving. For the last 30 years cars on average have gotten 15-30MPG. Fuel economy has been ignored for the most part.

And X5 V8 M that gets 20MPG vice 12MPG is still a bad idea.
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      08-29-2008, 12:15 PM   #14
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The trick and BMW has the engineering depth do it, is car that gets good MPG and performs like a BMW (3 series does good job). I would not pay BMW prices for something that gets great gas mileage but performs like a brick on wheels.

In the past it was thought you can't have performance and economy, I think that Palbay is partially correct in that it will take $ to have it. But I think that over time the cost of implementing composites in production cars will fall, so I think that eventually we will have our TTV8's performance and decent MPG.

The TTV8 shows you can make high HP engine with a smaller physical footprint, minor yes but it's the right kind of thinking. Up to now if you want more HP you just created bigger displacement engines.

so that's my 2 cents.
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      08-29-2008, 12:57 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmlgc View Post
The trick and BMW has the engineering depth do it, is car that gets good MPG and performs like a BMW (3 series does good job). I would not pay BMW prices for something that gets great gas mileage but performs like a brick on wheels.
In the past it was thought you can't have performance and economy, I think that Palbay is partially correct in that it will take $ to have it. But I think that over time the cost of implementing composites in production cars will fall, so I think that eventually we will have our TTV8's performance and decent MPG.

The TTV8 shows you can make high HP engine with a smaller physical footprint, minor yes but it's the right kind of thinking. Up to now if you want more HP you just created bigger displacement engines.

so that's my 2 cents.
Precisely....Nobody...no a real car enthusiast....is going to buy an X6 w/ a 150hp 4banger that might get 35MPG and handles like a MB Smart car.Why do you think BMW chose the X6 w/ the TTV8 to be their very first hybrid.Because it cuts to the very core and essence and meaning for the BMW Brand. "Utlimate Driving Machine"-"Sheer Driving Pleasure"......BMW has a huge point to prove...we can build a fun and powerful car to drive AND it will get reasonable ( subjective term I realize) gas mileage.Given the early MPG's we are hearing on this forum for the 50i X6,a 20-25% increase in MPG's is a big step in the right direction.No, it's not 35MPG, but it shows progress can be made on MPG and it buys time for other materials and technologies to emerge.And it helps preserve the BMW we all know and love.It will be a game of singles....not homeruns.I'm personally glad that BMW is trying very hard to maintain the "Utlimate Driving Machine" and eek a few more MPG's out of the cars along the way.Otherwise....remember my story about the museum! Thanks! PalBay
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      08-29-2008, 01:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palbay View Post
Precisely....Nobody...no a real car enthusiast....is going to buy an X6 w/ a 150hp 4banger that might get 35MPG and handles like a MB Smart car.Why do you think BMW chose the X6 w/ the TTV8 to be their very first hybrid.Because it cuts to the very core and essence and meaning for the BMW Brand. "Utlimate Driving Machine"-"Sheer Driving Pleasure"......BMW has a huge point to prove...we can build a fun and powerful car to drive AND it will get reasonable ( subjective term I realize) gas mileage.Given the early MPG's we are hearing on this forum for the 50i X6,a 20-25% increase in MPG's is a big step in the right direction.No, it's not 35MPG, but it shows progress can be made on MPG and it buys time for other materials and technologies to emerge.And it helps preserve the BMW we all know and love.It will be a game of singles....not homeruns.I'm personally glad that BMW is trying very hard to maintain the "Utlimate Driving Machine" and eek a few more MPG's out of the cars along the way.Otherwise....remember my story about the museum! Thanks! PalBay
BMW has already stated in the latest Roundel they cannot meet 2015 CAFE standards. If Obama gets in office, you can bet MPG standards will be a lot stricter.

So although BMW can make a 20MPG X6, I doubt the penalty for selling such vehicles will be tolerable by customers.

I think the current target MPG is 37MPG by 2015 or 2020. Nothing BMW makes even comes close to that.

I think what we are seeing from BMW are ideas that were planned 3-5 years ago. Times are changing and they need to scrap most of it and start over.
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      08-29-2008, 02:36 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chuck92103 View Post
BMW has already stated in the latest Roundel they cannot meet 2015 CAFE standards. If Obama gets in office, you can bet MPG standards will be a lot stricter.

So although BMW can make a 20MPG X6, I doubt the penalty for selling such vehicles will be tolerable by customers.

I think the current target MPG is 37MPG by 2015 or 2020. Nothing BMW makes even comes close to that.

I think what we are seeing from BMW are ideas that were planned 3-5 years ago. Times are changing and they need to scrap most of it and start over.
I'm in commercial real estate....I better start looking for a place to build that museum Thanks. PalBay
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      08-29-2008, 08:01 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by dmlgc View Post
If the cars were 2000 pounds different I would agree with you but I consider 400/800 to be close considering the size of those and the size of the X6.

My wife has a 330 (not vert) and when both cars are parked in the garage next to each other the X6 is behemoth in size, looking at them parked next to each other I would not expect the 330 to be even within a 1000 pounds of the X6.
Dude, a 330i weighs 3450 lbs. An X6 (according to the OP) weighs 4800 lbs. That's a 1350 lb difference.
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      08-30-2008, 01:36 PM   #19
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Dude, a 330i weighs 3450 lbs. An X6 (according to the OP) weighs 4800 lbs. That's a 1350 lb difference.
well what we were talking about ( if you look at the original post) is that a 330 vert is only 800 pounds less that an X6. Now I will concede that my wife's 330 non vert doesn't weigh as much. but my point was that looking at the two parked next to each other ( and a 330 vert would be the exact same size as hers) I would not expect there to be only a 800 pound difference.
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