XBimmers.com | BMW X6 Forum X5 Forum
 
TireRack





Go Back   XBimmers.com | BMW X6 Forum X5 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General Automotive (non-BMW) Talk + Photos/Videos

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-17-2017, 05:30 PM   #23
FriskyDingo
Rather Ambivalent
FriskyDingo's Avatar
United_States
378
Rep
755
Posts

Drives: Spiritedly
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Trapped In My Mind

iTrader: (0)

As someone with seat time in a fair number of 911 variants, 991's included- Without knowing how the car was optioned, it's really quite hard to say.

If the car didn't have Sport Chrono or Sport Suspension, it certainly may not have felt as sharp as it could have. The most basic 991 I've driven was a 991.1 C2 non-S Coupe w/ PDK and no Sport Options. It was solid, but not as dynamically crisp and exciting as I'd expect. I could see being a little underwhelmed.

On the opposite side, I drove a 991.2 C2S w/ PDK, Sport Chrono, Sport Susp, and Power Pack, and that car made the M4 I drove- non Comp Pkg DCT car- feel downright meek. It killed the M4 in everything- power, gearbox, braking, sharpness, steering feel, handling, even sound.

Various other 911's were all over the spectrum depending on trim and options.

I'd personally recommend trying to drive a RWD GTS model, 991.1 or 997.2. They're the best modern enthusiast 911's for regular use imo.
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 06:13 PM   #24
RABAUKE
Banned
Canada
4653
Rep
1,395
Posts

Drives: Porsche 993, 2014 MB GLK
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: The Golden Horseshoe, Ontario

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Nuts View Post
I'm with you on this one, but that front end is a hard pill to swallow though
I had one for 3 years, I couldn't get past the front lights.....finally got the 993
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 09:31 PM   #25
Digital.James
Colonel
Digital.James's Avatar
119
Rep
2,703
Posts

Drives: GT4, Raptor.2, Tuono 1100F
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NC

iTrader: (7)

Ive driven a C4S and a M4... not sure what you're getting at. The steering on the 991.2s are some of the best electric assisted racks feeling wise. Engine wise, as previously stated, the 3.0l needs to be revved out. 991.2's even with the turbochargers feel glorious at red line.
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 09:38 PM   #26
beats
Lieutenant
beats's Avatar
225
Rep
599
Posts

Drives: 2015 911 GTS
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Definitely try a 991 GTS RWD if you can find one. I have spent time in both, but prefer the 991.1 (even though it has less power). Both cars are a big step from the E92 IMO.
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 10:29 PM   #27
M-Nuts
Private
M-Nuts's Avatar
19
Rep
84
Posts

Drives: F82 M4
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by skru_fase View Post
Definitely try a 991 GTS RWD if you can find one. I have spent time in both, but prefer the 991.1 (even though it has less power). Both cars are a big step from the E92 IMO.
How's the throttle response on the 991.1? I have the F82 which has a powerhouse of an engine compared to the E92.
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 11:07 PM   #28
///M Ryder
Grown Azz Man
///M Ryder's Avatar
United_States
429
Rep
3,021
Posts

Drives: GT4
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Texas

iTrader: (8)

I would say you kinda of cheated yourself......you drove a 4S (extra weight....check), not sure what options it had but that would also be a factor. Next, you jumped in a rear engine car with high expectations. One thing I learned very quickly.....When the engine is behind you things seem really weird up front until you've gotten lots of seat time and made the adjustment. And trust me, there are adjustments to be made to your driving style. I know you mentioned that availability of cars to drive may be a issue in your area but try to attend some local car meets and chat with some folks. You'd be surprised at the number of Pcar drivers that have come from M cars. And of course drive as many as you can and you'll come to appreciate the reason we say "There's No Substitute".........Phil
__________________
2016 GT4.....Sapphire Blue Metallic, Platinum stitch Leather/Alcantara interior, Carbon Fiber Trim, PCM w/Nav, Guards Red Belts, 2 Zone Climate, Sport Chrono, LWB, Smokers Pack, Big Gas Tank, Light Design Pack, Bi-Xenon w/PDL, Auto Dim Mirror, Clear Side Markers, GTS Clear Taillights
Appreciate 0
      10-17-2017, 11:45 PM   #29
Lucky1
Colonel
Canada
640
Rep
2,045
Posts

Drives: '08 128i Coupe SGM 6MT
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M Ryder View Post
I would say you kinda of cheated yourself......you drove a 4S (extra weight....check), not sure what options it had but that would also be a factor. Next, you jumped in a rear engine car with high expectations. One thing I learned very quickly.....When the engine is behind you things seem really weird up front until you've gotten lots of seat time and made the adjustment. And trust me, there are adjustments to be made to your driving style. I know you mentioned that availability of cars to drive may be a issue in your area but try to attend some local car meets and chat with some folks. You'd be surprised at the number of Pcar drivers that have come from M cars. And of course drive as many as you can and you'll come to appreciate the reason we say "There's No Substitute".........Phil
So what's the point of the rear engine layout? I hear so many negatives but the only positive I've heard is it distributes more weight over the rear which can maximize braking over the rear due to weight location and weight transfer. I've also heard race instructors joke the engine's in the wrong place. So what's the truth? Is it stubbornness on Porsche's part to keep their legacy formula going or are they onto something the rest of the industry hasn't caught on to?
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 12:06 AM   #30
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
That's part and parcel to why Porsche has subscribed to AWD to help cure (OK, maybe not cure, but definitely mitigate) the 911 of its major handling bugaboo.
That and tires that are like 2 feet wide.
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 12:08 AM   #31
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
The 911 has the fun factor but it can not overcome the physics and weight dynamics of the layout.
Well, it can, it just takes ever-increasing amounts of development and money to do so, more-so than something like the Cayman. This is why the price keeps going so stratospheric.
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 12:18 AM   #32
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
So what's the point of the rear engine layout?
Useless-for-people rear seats. That's it. I've been saying for years to just take a cayman chassis and put a 911 body over it and call it good. Porsche has even done something similar to this at times for prototype development, but the purists insist they need the seats that no one can actually ride in. It's not that you can't overcome this, it just takes more money and technology/development comparatively. Why were the cararra and 918 hypercars mid-engine? Because they knew this was the best layout. With 5 more years of development with the 911, they've finally surpassed the 918, which was not a light car, but was way faster than any 911 at the time due to the configuration and being able to capture and use braking energy. Although 911s have been raced forever, you can see that their highest level race cars are mid-engined as well. Maybe a while before they come out with a new porsche hypercar, but I doubt it would be rear-engined.

This is not to rag on porsche for making the 911 rear engined, but it is an inherent weakness that has to be overcome, just like the reverse of the 911 awd chassis, the subaru sti/wrx, where the engine is placed in front of the front axle. You are rewarded with massive understeer followed by snap-oversteer. There are some ways to help tune this out, but it's one reason why it was almost always bested by the Evo.
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 12:37 AM   #33
eluded
2JZ-GTE
eluded's Avatar
Bulgaria
2959
Rep
3,948
Posts

Drives: 340 6MT, 50e, others
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Sofia

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Nuts View Post
I currently own a Honda S2000


To the WFC (worlds fastest car).
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 05:03 AM   #34
Digital.James
Colonel
Digital.James's Avatar
119
Rep
2,703
Posts

Drives: GT4, Raptor.2, Tuono 1100F
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: NC

iTrader: (7)

Wow so much misinformation... AWD wasn't implemented to cure any handling bugs in the 911. It was to solve the issue of traction with ever increasing HP figures. Additionally, EU has some horrible weather and AWD might be needed by a huge population of 911 owners. The 959 was a mid engine car with AWD and the fastest Porsche's around race tracks currently are 2WD. So what does that tell you?

Separately, if the argument that read engine layout's are wrong is just plain old. If it's so wrong, why is the 911 the sports car measuring stick?
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 07:11 AM   #35
drivetolive
Second Lieutenant
88
Rep
217
Posts

Drives: Z4M Coupe
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RABAUKE View Post
Thanks, I'm pretty pumped. Pfaff is the dealership, the sales guy tells me they are the biggest dealer in North America, says they sell 2000 cars a year.

Anyway, I have always loved the look of the older 911's but just can't take my eyes off the 993. Here's another.

I was eyeing the same car at Pfaff - congratulations on pulling the trigger! I don't think I would have actually pulled the trigger, but it seemed like a great deal for the car! That 993 seems almost perfect .
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 07:51 AM   #36
BEM-S4
Major General
BEM-S4's Avatar
United_States
4515
Rep
8,942
Posts

Drives: Dinan M235, Dinan Sport Wagon
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Philadelphia

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
The 911 has the fun factor but it can not overcome the physics and weight dynamics of the layout.
Well, it can, it just takes ever-increasing amounts of development and money to do so, more-so than something like the Cayman. This is why the price keeps going so stratospheric.
Not really. They throw a ton of development and tech and money at it to overcome some inherent flaws vs the mid engine layout. Yes it?s better with all the tech and computerized intervention but you cannot change the laws of physics. Mid engine is inherently a better choice than rear. You can do all kinds of shit to mask that disadvantage but the underlying issue is still there.
__________________
2022 Macan S
2016 F31 328i xDrive Sport Wagon
2006 E46 330ci ZHP Convertible
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 08:03 AM   #37
saeyedoc
Captain
284
Rep
835
Posts

Drives: 2013 Carrera S, 2013 Panny GTS
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: San Antonio, TX

iTrader: (0)

Rear engined cars are all about traction, the 911 puts power down like nothing I've ever owned, more so than my previous Cayman. Once you get into a turn, you can hammer it and it will just pull.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 08:54 AM   #38
hi_officer
Private First Class
150
Rep
188
Posts

Drives: something fast
Join Date: May 2017
Location: somewhere slow

iTrader: (0)

Wow, comparing S2000s to 911s/GT3s. People should really go out and test drive these vehicles in order to calibrate their experiences.

Engine in the wrong place? Says who and for what reason? Look at the top 10 N'ring lap times, front/mid/rear engine layouts are all there (GT2RS is #1 and it's rear engined). It matters more with what the engineers do with the layout they are working with.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 09:07 AM   #39
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
Not really. They throw a ton of development and tech and money at it to overcome some inherent flaws vs the mid engine layout. Yes it?s better with all the tech and computerized intervention but you cannot change the laws of physics. Mid engine is inherently a better choice than rear. You can do all kinds of shit to mask that disadvantage but the underlying issue is still there.
Isn't that basically what I said?
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 09:08 AM   #40
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by saeyedoc View Post
Rear engined cars are all about traction, the 911 puts power down like nothing I've ever owned, more so than my previous Cayman. Once you get into a turn, you can hammer it and it will just pull.
Doesn't the 911 have a lot more power and especially torque, than your Cayman?
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 09:10 AM   #41
RM7
Brigadier General
RM7's Avatar
2870
Rep
3,445
Posts

Drives: Camaro SS 1LE
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Alaska

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital.James View Post
The 959 was a mid engine car with AWD and the fastest Porsche's around race tracks currently are 2WD. So what does that tell you?
Ummmmm...sure about that?
__________________
Current: 2018 Camaro SS 1LE, 2023 Colorado ZR2. Former: BMW 428i Gran Coupe.
Appreciate 1
      10-18-2017, 09:13 AM   #42
Viffermike
Colonel
Viffermike's Avatar
United_States
1753
Rep
2,942
Posts

Drives: '18 black-n-blue 718 Cayman
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Big D

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
That and tires that are like 2 feet wide.
As noted toward the bottom of the post you quoted from.
__________________
--Life is a journey made more exciting with a fast car.--
--Helmets are for closers.--
<<Current: "Blackened" '18 NBM Porsche 718 Cayman ... Gone (but not forgotten): "Blackened" MG '15 228i M Sport w/aFe filter/scoop, Hertz drivers, P3Cars multigauge, other goodies>>
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 09:18 AM   #43
Ab28
Captain
591
Rep
723
Posts

Drives: E90 M3/E39 M5/128i
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: .

iTrader: (3)

My suggestions (solely based on the input you've provided)

1) Cayman GT4
2) 997.1 GT3
3) Carrera GTS

In that order.

#1&2 only available with 3 pedals, but only #1 and #3 will have any warranty options depending on year.

997.1 engine is sublime and seriously robust. Not for everyone though. In my eyes, the perfect blend of power, rawness, and soul. I prefer the .1 GT3 over the Cayman GT4, but that's just me.

The GT4---a great mix of what your S2000 provides and probably what you're looking for out of a Porsche.
Appreciate 0
      10-18-2017, 09:20 AM   #44
Viffermike
Colonel
Viffermike's Avatar
United_States
1753
Rep
2,942
Posts

Drives: '18 black-n-blue 718 Cayman
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Big D

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital.James View Post
Wow so much misinformation... AWD wasn't implemented to cure any handling bugs in the 911. It was to solve the issue of traction with ever increasing HP figures.
Which, in the case of the 911, is a handling issue because when the rear tires break loose because of too much power (also known as a lack of traction, natch), the natural oversteer of the chassis design makes things get REAL REAL quick.

No car (or motorcycle, or anything powered, really) can handle better if it can't get its power to the ground. The 911's natural tendency to oversteer for a variety of reasons (inertia chief among them) makes the effect worse compared to most other cars -- particularly, as you noted, for drivers with fair to poor driving skills.

AWD helps mitigate two major issues at once: traction (as you stated), and handling behavior once traction is lost.
__________________
--Life is a journey made more exciting with a fast car.--
--Helmets are for closers.--
<<Current: "Blackened" '18 NBM Porsche 718 Cayman ... Gone (but not forgotten): "Blackened" MG '15 228i M Sport w/aFe filter/scoop, Hertz drivers, P3Cars multigauge, other goodies>>
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:33 AM.




xbimmers
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST