The best audio upgrade for the X5

[argento]

Originally Posted by RL18

argento

No worries!

Mine will likely be drastically different as I’m most likely aiming for a lower crossover point to prevent beaming on the 4” midrange, I’m also using a l-pad attenuator on my tweeter to allow me to level match easier rather than use a resistor, and the mt120n tweeter i’m using is a bit different then the b&w tweeter (can play a bit lower in the frequency range and is a silk dome tweeter). I have yet to continue that project though because I’m waiting to buy some measurement equipment and set up an environment to be able to better understand the changes I’m making.

Get some data on the Dba at max volume and peak spl when you get that audiocontrol rta too! I’m interested to see how it compares to my system. My guess is we’ll be equal, possibly even you have the edge for the door speakers output. Btw for the rta microphone tuning you can go on SMD (steve meade design) and get a cd for their DD-1 that has a pink noise track you can use it to get a base tune. Then use your music to fine tune further to your liking.

$135 each is a large chunk of money though, jeez. I think that I’d probably have about that in it to make 6 crossovers maybe even less. I’m also going to 3d print a casing for mine and use an epoxy to seal the crossover from the elements. Maybe If we can get the specs I can make them up for us cheaper and get them weatherproof! Also on the b&w woofers I remember someone saying you can find them much cheaper on Aliexpress and i did buy a set and can confirm that they tested out to be the same as the originals I got off ebay.

RL18 I was really going the simplest route b/c I don't have a lot of experience tuning...just enough to get me in trouble, lol. I did some research and saw how this SA-4100i we used to tune a system...they tuned each speaker individually and then tuned the entire setup. W/o being able to turn off all the other speakers easily, I was just going to tune the system as a whole and see what that gets me. I planned to look at the OEM mode with 7band EQ and then the Android mode with 10band EQ. I'll look up videos on collecting Dba data, that should be fun. The 4100 comes with pink noise...are they not all made the same?

Yes, it was pricey but I don't know how to make my own and I wanted to get the most out of the B&W speaker upgrade. In my DIY I wrote about considering just using the OEM diplexers at each location and with the upgraded B&W speakers. The diplexers are about ~$70/ea. But I had no idea how this would sound. Another option I considered was using the [CORRECTION, NOT G-series diplexers b/c I don't think they have them; It was F90 diplexers 65.13.9.353.154] made for the B&W's. I bought one used to dissect but it had a 4-pin connection and I wasn't sure how the B&W's and source were wired w/o actually having an E90 door panel with B&W wiring to compare...so I was left hanging.

I had picked out a raspberry case (RPA-4B-1) and the XO designer built them to fit in this case, but even fitting perfectly over the XO it still made them bulky. The midranges started out around $140ea in 2021, but by this year were up to $160/ea...a cheaper source is welcome news for some!

[RL18]

argento

Yeah you are supposed to do them separately. But in your case you don’t have separate channels to apply EQ to. I think the key thing will be to get the EQ to be flat. Then fine tune it to how you like your music to sound from there. I do recommend only messing with the factory EQ though. Modifying with the android EQ could cause some issues. If you do I would start with the Oem Eq, then if you see some frequencies that need fine tuning you might be able to tweak the android Eq a little bit to get what you need. I don’t recommend making big adjustments on the android eq though.
Some articles to reference: https://carstereochick.com/2012/08/0...-audio-system/

https://www.hometheatershack.com/thr...3/#post-309825

https://flypaper.soundfly.com/produc...e-human-voice/

https://www.teachmeaudio.com/mixing/...audio-spectrum

On the 4100 it’ll show you the Dba in the “RTA” tab. I’m honestly not sure if it comes with pink noise, but I already had the SMD cd with pink noise so I just used that.

I’m sure the crossovers you had made are of good quality. Designing crossovers, he must know what he’s doing! I’m getting deeper into that stuff though so maybe once I get my crossovers completed I can switch gears and make a cheaper option for the b&w midrange/tweeter or if he somehow gave you a diagram of the crossover with the values I could make them.

I’ll be looking forward to hearing your results!

[RL18]

Originally Posted by Matti123

Just watched a youtube video and the e70 looks to be very close to infinite baffle but I think its still just internally coupled subwoofer system just like every other bmw.
5mm xmax? What?? The bad hifi/us base audio woofers have 6mm xmax, the parameters are published on this forum. I will make a video of 10mm xmax at some point. The mw9 has only 4.5mm xmax because its made for a whole different purpose. Many 4 inch midranges have same xmax lol. "Bass speaker that happens to play low"...lol you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You think the crossover between mid and underseats is around 500hz? You realize how bad that would sound when directional sounds are coming beneath your butt? Actual fact from individual audio system is that the low pass for underseats is around 225hz and high pass for mids around 200hz. This can also be found from the forum.
The ix b&w system indeed does have four woofers and two 4D "bass shakers". Aftermarket systems can be better with custom pods of course but requires an actual professional, I am certain you could not do it.

Share all the t/s parameters you have measured if you have.

I’m trying to understand what your motive is to keep arguing. Are you upset? This is by far the most comprehensive thread on here that goes over using the b&w speakers outside of the b&w system. Instead of being mr. grumpy why not try to provide something constructive to this thread. If you think it’s not good enough information then why don’t you add something useful? It’ll only benefit the thread.

The opening goes into the body I believe. But as far as I can tell it acts as a sealed enclosure because I’ve tested the underseat enclosure outside of the x5 and the results installed that I got, mimicked a sealed enclosure. If you want to test it and prove me wrong then do it. Being wrong doesn’t bother me as much as it seems to bother you!

Please do measure the xmax if it’s important to you. It really isn’t of much importance to me to know that. There’s a lot more factors that go into how a speaker will perform than xmax. It also seems like you mean “xmech” rather than “xmax”. I don’t remember anyone in this thread mentioning the x-max either.
Why is that a ridiculous statement? They’re called “bass woofers” not “subwoofers”. You think it’s an 8” woofer purpose built to play sub-bass and happens to play bass and midbass? If it was a purpose built subwoofer BMW and B&W would call it a “sub-woofer”. Also why would the newer b&w systems be using 8x 4d shakers in all the seats? Doesn’t that tell you that they felt the need to supplement the sub-bass too? The B&W underseat is more similar to a morel mw9 than it is a subwoofer. “Made for a whole different purpose” stop being so silly you.
But now with your logic you’re saying the underseats in bmws are subwoofers, lets compare one of the best 8” subwoofers in the aftermarket… a jl 8w7, which is only rated to go down to 23hz, has an Fs of 36hz, but has double the xmax (going by your claimed xmax) and three times the depth. Is it better? Uh negative. It’s an unfair comparison. What about one of the best shallow mount 8” subwoofers? An audiomobile evo 2408, which actually has a frequency response rated down to 20hz, 14.5mm xmax, a depth of 3.6”, and a Fs of 30hz. Another unfair comparison. B&W designed these woofers to play some sub-bass, but primarily bass & midbass and most likely the low-midrange too
Btw I ran 4 of the b&w underseats in my x5 before adding a subwoofer, it was an impressive setup for what they are (and I plan on doing 4 in the future paired with a subwoofer), but I didn’t play them below 25hz and they still lack the impact you can get from an actual subwoofer (yup I said it). My single 10” (shallow mount mind you) audiomobile evo 2410 subwoofer getting 550w walks all over even 4 b&w woofers in the sub bass frequencies. Really they are great woofers and you start to go over 60hz and the tables will turn. They have a Rohacell/kelvar cone too, so they should be able to play nearly flat across a wide frequency range and they do from my testing, but with them having an fs of 46hz it’s expected that their response drops off below that. Idk how I can be any more clear about this…

As for the crossover point I can’t see the b&w system lows to mids crossover lower than 250hz, a common rule for a midrange is you want to play atleast one octave above its Fs, the 4” b&w midrange has an Fs of 135hz. In a purpose built enclosure you could probably get decent response down to 200hz or lower, but in a door? Nah. Again the b&w underseat cone should be stable playing higher in the frequency range being that it has a rohacell/kevlar cone. Why wouldn’t b&w take advantage of this? On the individual systems crossover point, it seems unlikely that bmw would overlap their crossover point. Idk how you can call that a “fact”, then proceed to not give any evidence to back up your “claim”. Any discussion on audio forums I’ve researched on crossovers contradicts that… I use to think it was okay to overlap my crossover points too but it can create issues and there’s nothing to gain from it. Actually sometimes it helps to “underlap” a crossover point because of excess energy at the crossover point, for example I have my sub low passed at 70hz and the underseats high passed at 80hz, which cleans up the bass a lot at the crossover. My upper crossover for the underseat is 400hz. I’ve experimented anywhere from 200hz-500hz and 400hz is where I’ve settled. Below 400hz the sound becomes too thin and lacks fullness in the bass. You do realize that the low midrange is largely responsible for the impact/fullness of the bass right? So you’re saying a 4” speaker is better than an 8” speaker at creating fullness? You think that it’s uncommon for an 8” speaker to play that high? Also you’re saying that cars that have a 6.5” speaker by your shin playing those same frequencies sounds bad too? My underseats are in “stereo” and I believe they even are in the stock systems, so even though the sound stage gets lowered a little bit, it’s still directional left to right. Also it adds clarity in the midrange, since the 4” midrange can do what a midrange does and idk… play the midrange.

I’ll give you one thing, you are right about the IX having four underseat woofers. Cool 👍🏽. I forgot someone mentioned that in this thread already. Other than the audio system, the electric part is eh…

“Aftermarket systems can be better with custom pods of course but requires an actual professional, I am certain you could not do it.”
^Aw an insult. What am I to do with myself? I’m so offended. Idk how I’ll be able to live with myself knowing I’m not an “actual professional” 😭

And finally! Nah, I’m good. I don’t take orders from you. I have the pictures ready to go, just chillin, in my camera roll though so whenever you’re ready to ask nicely and stop being rude I can post them for you

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

I’m trying to understand what your motive is to keep arguing. Are you upset? This is by far the most comprehensive thread on here that goes over using the b&w speakers outside of the b&w system. Instead of being mr. grumpy why not try to provide something constructive to this thread. If you think it’s not good enough information then why don’t you add something useful? It’ll only benefit the thread.

The opening goes into the body I believe. But as far as I can tell it acts as a sealed enclosure because I’ve tested the underseat enclosure outside of the x5 and the results installed that I got, mimicked a sealed enclosure. If you want to test it and prove me wrong then do it. Being wrong doesn’t bother me as much as it seems to bother you!

Please do measure the xmax if it’s important to you. It really isn’t of much importance to me to know that. There’s a lot more factors that go into how a speaker will perform than xmax. It also seems like you mean “xmech” rather than “xmax”. I don’t remember anyone in this thread mentioning the x-max either.
Why is that a ridiculous statement? They’re called “bass woofers” not “subwoofers”. You think it’s an 8” woofer purpose built to play sub-bass and happens to play bass and midbass? If it was a purpose built subwoofer BMW and B&W would call it a “sub-woofer”. Also why would the newer b&w systems be using 8x 4d shakers in all the seats? Doesn’t that tell you that they felt the need to supplement the sub-bass too? The B&W underseat is more similar to a morel mw9 than it is a subwoofer. “Made for a whole different purpose” stop being so silly you.
But now with your logic you’re saying the underseats in bmws are subwoofers, lets compare one of the best 8” subwoofers in the aftermarket… a jl 8w7, which is only rated to go down to 23hz, has an Fs of 36hz, but has double the xmax (going by your claimed xmax) and three times the depth. Is it better? Uh negative. It’s an unfair comparison. What about one of the best shallow mount 8” subwoofers? An audiomobile evo 2408, which actually has a frequency response rated down to 20hz, 14.5mm xmax, a depth of 3.6”, and a Fs of 30hz. Another unfair comparison. B&W designed these woofers to play some sub-bass, but primarily bass & midbass and most likely the low-midrange too
Btw I ran 4 of the b&w underseats in my x5 before adding a subwoofer, it was an impressive setup for what they are (and I plan on doing 4 in the future paired with a subwoofer), but I didn’t play them below 25hz and they still lack the impact you can get from an actual subwoofer (yup I said it). My single 10” (shallow mount mind you) audiomobile evo 2410 subwoofer getting 550w walks all over even 4 b&w woofers in the sub bass frequencies. Really they are great woofers and you start to go over 60hz and the tables will turn. They have a Rohacell/kelvar cone too, so they should be able to play nearly flat across a wide frequency range and they do from my testing, but with them having an fs of 46hz it’s expected that their response drops off below that. Idk how I can be any more clear about this…

As for the crossover point I can’t see the b&w system lows to mids crossover lower than 250hz, a common rule for a midrange is you want to play atleast one octave above its Fs, the 4” b&w midrange has an Fs of 135hz. In a purpose built enclosure you could probably get decent response down to 200hz or lower, but in a door? Nah. Again the b&w underseat cone should be stable playing higher in the frequency range being that it has a rohacell/kevlar cone. Why wouldn’t b&w take advantage of this? On the individual systems crossover point, it seems unlikely that bmw would overlap their crossover point. Idk how you can call that a “fact”, then proceed to not give any evidence to back up your “claim”. Any discussion on audio forums I’ve researched on crossovers contradicts that… I use to think it was okay to overlap my crossover points too but it can create issues and there’s nothing to gain from it. Actually sometimes it helps to “underlap” a crossover point because of excess energy at the crossover point, for example I have my sub low passed at 70hz and the underseats high passed at 80hz, which cleans up the bass a lot at the crossover. My upper crossover for the underseat is 400hz. I’ve experimented anywhere from 200hz-500hz and 400hz is where I’ve settled. Below 400hz the sound becomes too thin and lacks fullness in the bass. You do realize that the low midrange is largely responsible for the impact/fullness of the bass right? So you’re saying a 4” speaker is better than an 8” speaker at creating fullness? You think that it’s uncommon for an 8” speaker to play that high? Also you’re saying that cars that have a 6.5” speaker by your shin playing those same frequencies sounds bad too? My underseats are in “stereo” and I believe they even are in the stock systems, so even though the sound stage gets lowered a little bit, it’s still directional left to right. Also it adds clarity in the midrange, since the 4” midrange can do what a midrange does and idk… play the midrange.

I’ll give you one thing, you are right about the IX having four underseat woofers. Cool 👍🏽. I forgot someone mentioned that in this thread already. Other than the audio system, the electric part is eh…

“Aftermarket systems can be better with custom pods of course but requires an actual professional, I am certain you could not do it.”
^Aw an insult. What am I to do with myself? I’m so offended. Idk how I’ll be able to live with myself knowing I’m not an “actual professional” 😭

And finally! Nah, I’m good. I don’t take orders from you. I have the pictures ready to go, just chillin, in my camera roll though so whenever you’re ready to ask nicely and stop being rude I can post them for you

My motive is not to keep arguing but yes I am upset about many incorrect things said here. Most of them are corrected by now though.

You have tested the x5 enclosure outside of the car... Destroying the whole point of it lmao...

Xmax is one of the most important measurements for subwoofer and mids. Lower frequencies require more xmax or more cone area. Why would I mean xmech instead of xmax? What would the point be?

B&W calls the underseats "rohacell subwoofers" on their website, hmm... Yes it is designed to play sub-bass. You probably don't know yet, but sub-bass is 20-70hz by definition. You should google it. Why are they using bass shakers? Probably because it makes the system "4D"... Only thing in common with morel mw9 and b&w underseats is use of rohacell and similiar fs.

Lets get another thing straight here. Rated frequency response from manufacturers/sellers is useless information. So jl audio 8w7... Bad sensitivity of 82db, fs of 35hz and 19mm xmax. Lets compare it to eartrhquake sws 8x. Sws 8x has higher sensitivity of 86db, better fs of 30hz and better xmax of 23mm. All these and actually same size as bmw stock underseat. Only thing better on 8w7 is power handling, which it does need to compensate for awful 82db sensitivity. Not impressive. Now audiomobile evo 2408... How do you even dare to say to that? Have you looked at the spl vs freq curve? It peaks at around 55hz and drops over 20db to 20hz...
I play my underseats with 30hz subsonic filter and yeah 20hz is nearly 20db drop.

Individual audio has crossover around 200-225hz and I would like to say the b&w minds have improved over the b&o ones so cut off point is probably even lower. I play my b&w with 150hz crossover, they like it easy. I even played them with 100hz crossover and no distortion at all... They are great. Door is also a great "enclosure" for a 4" mid. B&w doesn't let the underseats play higher than 200hz because sound there is alredy directional and music coming from under you doesn't sound good. Please read and learn here: https://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=392596

I also don't use overlapping crosovers, I use linkwitz-riley crossovers so I can put high pass and low pass at same frequency because energy won't get boosted at the crossover point.

Impact of bass is below 150hz. You should again use an RTa and play your favorite song and see when and which frequencies kick. 400hz is not bass, thats mids like the singers voice. If I use my b&w underseats above 200hz they start to mud up because they can't keep up with those higher frequencies. They are not meant to. 4" mid is indeed better at playing things like quitar. you need to learn that different kind of speakers play different frequencies. Of course 8" playing mids can work. Many cars do that in the doors. Or 6.5" like my tesla model s. They play down to 60hz and way above 1000hz. But its a different kind of speaker. Cone area isn't the only factor

[RL18]

Matti123

But yet you keep arguing 🙄

They call them “Rohacell central bass woofers” on some models then they call them “rohacell subwoofers” on other models, really just seems like they can’t make up their mind. I thought I saw that it’s cone made of rohacell and kevlar too. The fact that the cone is yellow makes me think this anyways, maybe they dye it yellow though 🤷🏽‍♂️

Again. I tested them outside of the vehicle so I could understand what the enclosure was like installed.

🤦🏽‍♂️ Xmax isn’t the most important measurements for a subwoofer. Lower frequency response doesn’t require more xmax they require a lower Fs. You need things like Qts, Fs, and Vas to determine how a speakers response will be like.

I don’t know yet? Ive mentioned like 3 times that sub bass is 20-60hz lol. 60hz not 70hz. Are you sure that you “googled it”. 10hz difference isn’t a big deal but it’s not 70hz, it’s 60hz.

Taken from this article: https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/bow...d-sound-bmw-ix
“But the list of speakers used in the iX doesn’t stop there. The B&W system also includes what it calls ‘4D Exciters’ with two built into the backrests of each of the front seats. They’re designed to intensify how bass notes are felt, and their intensity can be adjusted via the main menu system.”

^Sounds like to me that they’re fancy bass shakers or Bass transducers. I have one ordered cause I wanna see what it really is but sure sounds like a bass shaker.

Again I never said the b&ws are bad to use if you don’t want to go crazy with a subwoofer, I actual recommend them if you look back in the thread. And I still do. I just said it’s not a real subwoofer, nor would I want it to be. I don’t think you want it to be either. The fact that you think it can compete with either of those subwoofers is funny to me. You can’t make a subwoofer that can play that high without trading off its low frequency response. There’s not a one size fits all speaker. Again you’re oversimplifying audio.

Also you can’t trust rated frequency response from a manufacturer/seller? But you can trust B&W? So you’re not being biased when you say that? You can’t compare it to a subwoofer because it’s a bass woofer, not a subwoofer. Goodness gracious man, at this point you’ve just decided to keep digging this hole huh?

You can’t compare it to the sws 8x because you don’t have enough specs TO compare it. You don’t know the sensitivity, which the b&w is probably higher because 2.83v for a 8ohm speaker is 1w, for a 4ohms speaker it’s 2w. If you compare an 8ohm & 4ohm speaker with the same sensitivity (86db) @ 2.83v the 8ohm is actually 86db at 1w the 4ohm speaker is -3 db less, so 83db, because it takes 2w at 2.83v. The formula is P=V^2/R. To Make it even more confusing for you, two different woofers with the same nominal impedance won’t have the same impedances over the same frequency range, every speakers impedance changes over the frequency range they play. Also the earthquake sws is a terrible underseat replacement, especially if you’re using factory power. And same size? What? Not the depth you need a spacer to install them because they have the magnet below the cone 😂, not above the cone like all other underseat options, which are bass woofers. This thread shows it’s response compared to the bmw woofer and audison woofer: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1585559

The evo 2408 doesn’t drop over 20db from 30-20hz lol. What spl vs frequency curve are you looking at? They are made to be paired with their passive radiator. In a vented enclosure they drop like 16db from 30hz-20hz. In a sealed enclosure they drop 10db. They don’t post the passive radiator so I couldn’t tell you that one. My point is these are purpose built subwoofers that don’t necessarily have great frequency response down low in purpose made enclosures, so why would the b&w be any better, especially when it can play much higher?

We need a graph showing their actual response to know anything about their output. Btw the xmax doesn’t help you with that lol. The Fs correlates with how well they will play low frequency and where you should set your crossovers. The b&w Fs is 46hz so you should have a subsonic filter around there, not 30hz. Heres a link to my smd im-sg+: https://damore-engineering.myshopify...ts/im-sg-plus. Look at the owners manual to get more information on the importance of the Fs and also why the actual T/S parameters are what is needed to determine a woofers output, not the xmax which isn’t a T/S parameter it’s a technical spec of the speaker.

Thankyou for actually posting some proof. This doesn’t say anything about the b&w crossovers though, you’re just speculating. 200hz is low. Going by the manual in the smd im-sg+ you can crossover 1/2 an octave above their Fs if you use a 24db slope, if that were the case for the b&w 200hz would be okay, using a 12db slope it’s advised to cross one octave above the Fs, we don’t know the b&o midrange Fs though so I can’t comment. Also in that post… The sws response is “poo” above 120hz, as stated in that post you linked, because it’s a subwoofer not a bass woofer. Also using a different impedance speaker moves the crossover point so it was probably 200hz before he change the impedance, I’m sure bmw knows better. Ive never said you overlap your crossover points either.

I’ll say it again one more time… Bmw puts bass woofers in their systems. The b&w 8” woofer is just the best performing BASS WOOFER in terms of having good response into sub-bass too compared to other factory underseats before it, that are also… wait for it… BASS WOOFERS! Idk how much more we need to beat this dead horse to get you to realize what they are. It’s NOT like the sws lol, the sws is built differently for a different purpose.

400hz is the low-midrange, not the midrange. Midrange is 500hz-2khz. And I know it might sound crazy but the human voice goes down below 200hz 😱. Look at some of the articles I linked to Argento. From what I got out of them and other audio forum discussions, it’s not hurting anything playing my underseats to 400hz nor does it sound bad like you think.
As for the midranges I’m not using my B&W midranges because I’m making custom crossovers for them. I’m using grs b100-4 midranges which have a lower Fs of 87hz, which also means they should have better response down low… but even they don’t sound good crossed at 200hz. Maybe they’re just junk idk. I even got some morel caw 428 midranges to try which have an Fs of 74hz, they aren’t very sensitive though so lots of power needed and even though they have better response down low, the b&w midranges sound better in the midrange where a midrange actually matters and their a lot more sensitive. Also did you just say a car door is a great enclosure for a midrange? A car in general is a terrible environment for audio. It can be decent with heavy amounts of sound deadening.

Uhh no. How the bass sounds is not limited to just the bass frequency range. Also I hate to break this to you but bass goes from 60-250hz 😕. Even sub-bass is effected from how the highs are tuned. Also the frequency range above 200hz is indeed called the mud, yes. It goes up to 500hz and it’s recommended to make Eq cut here to prevent vocals from sounding muddy. Actually in one of those articles I linked going over vocals it says: “Don’t be scared to reduce the gain around this area by about 5 to 10 decibels (dB) if you have to.”
And that’s exactly what I did to make the underseats sound good in this range. Specifically between 200hz & 300hz is where you hear vowels, there’s also a lot of energy (or a peak) in this range that needs to be reduced.
A guitar plays a wide frequency, if you want to add fullness to how a guitar sounds then you need a speaker that can create “fullness” around 240hz an 8” speaker that is stable past 240hz is a better candidate than a 4” speaker that CAN play down to 250hz (doesn’t this sound similar to the b&w underseats being ABLE to play sub frequencies, but it’s better to let a purpose built subwoofer cover those frequencies?). Cone area is pretty important and no the b&w midranges don’t have enough xmax to make up for this. In the higher frequencies of a guitar though, yeah absolutely the 4” midrange will do better, but even the tweeter will have to take over at some point when the midranges start beaming.

Really I appreciate your concern in this thread. And I thankyou for bringing up points like you have because It helped me to clarify a lot of things actually. Challenging the content is absolutely okay. Freedom of speech man. But I think we’ve done a great job putting good info into the thread, especially argento with his amazing Diy. Improvements will continue to be made along the way when we find out more and if you’d like to add any constructive data to this thread to update claims or provide better information, please do. It’ll only help everyone reading this thread get better info if they decide to add B&W speakers to their BMW.

Thankyou for your opinion, and no more arguing about the B&W underseats being subwoofers until real evidence is shown. Okay? Great. Thanks 🙏🏽

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

Matti123

But yet you keep arguing 🙄

They call them “Rohacell central bass woofers” on some models then they call them “rohacell subwoofers” on other models, really just seems like they can’t make up their mind. I thought I saw that it’s cone made of rohacell and kevlar too. The fact that the cone is yellow makes me think this anyways, maybe they dye it yellow though 🤷🏽‍♂️

Again. I tested them outside of the vehicle so I could understand what the enclosure was like installed.

🤦🏽‍♂️ Xmax isn’t the most important measurements for a subwoofer. Lower frequency response doesn’t require more xmax they require a lower Fs. You need things like Qts, Fs, and Vas to determine how a speakers response will be like.

I don’t know yet? Ive mentioned like 3 times that sub bass is 20-60hz lol. 60hz not 70hz. Are you sure that you “googled it”. 10hz difference isn’t a big deal but it’s not 70hz, it’s 60hz.

Taken from this article: https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/bow...d-sound-bmw-ix
“But the list of speakers used in the iX doesn’t stop there. The B&W system also includes what it calls ‘4D Exciters’ with two built into the backrests of each of the front seats. They’re designed to intensify how bass notes are felt, and their intensity can be adjusted via the main menu system.”

^Sounds like to me that they’re fancy bass shakers or Bass transducers. I have one ordered cause I wanna see what it really is but sure sounds like a bass shaker.

Again I never said the b&ws are bad to use if you don’t want to go crazy with a subwoofer, I actual recommend them if you look back in the thread. And I still do. I just said it’s not a real subwoofer, nor would I want it to be. I don’t think you want it to be either. The fact that you think it can compete with either of those subwoofers is funny to me. You can’t make a subwoofer that can play that high without trading off its low frequency response. There’s not a one size fits all speaker. Again you’re oversimplifying audio.

Also you can’t trust rated frequency response from a manufacturer/seller? But you can trust B&W? So you’re not being biased when you say that? You can’t compare it to a subwoofer because it’s a bass woofer, not a subwoofer. Goodness gracious man, at this point you’ve just decided to keep digging this hole huh?

You can’t compare it to the sws 8x because you don’t have enough specs TO compare it. You don’t know the sensitivity, which the b&w is probably higher because 2.83v for a 8ohm speaker is 1w, for a 4ohms speaker it’s 2w. If you compare an 8ohm & 4ohm speaker with the same sensitivity (86db) @ 2.83v the 8ohm is actually 86db at 1w the 4ohm speaker is -3 db less, so 83db, because it takes 2w at 2.83v. The formula is P=V^2/R. To Make it even more confusing for you, two different woofers with the same nominal impedance won’t have the same impedances over the same frequency range, every speakers impedance changes over the frequency range they play. Also the earthquake sws is a terrible underseat replacement, especially if you’re using factory power. And same size? What? Not the depth you need a spacer to install them because they have the magnet below the cone 😂, not above the cone like all other underseat options, which are bass woofers. This thread shows it’s response compared to the bmw woofer and audison woofer: https://f30.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh....php?t=1585559

The evo 2408 doesn’t drop over 20db from 30-20hz lol. What spl vs frequency curve are you looking at? They are made to be paired with their passive radiator. In a vented enclosure they drop like 16db from 30hz-20hz. In a sealed enclosure they drop 10db. They don’t post the passive radiator so I couldn’t tell you that one. My point is these are purpose built subwoofers that don’t necessarily have great frequency response down low in purpose made enclosures, so why would the b&w be any better, especially when it can play much higher?

We need a graph showing their actual response to know anything about their output. Btw the xmax doesn’t help you with that lol. The Fs correlates with how well they will play low frequency and where you should set your crossovers. The b&w Fs is 46hz so you should have a subsonic filter around there, not 30hz. Heres a link to my smd im-sg+: https://damore-engineering.myshopify...ts/im-sg-plus. Look at the owners manual to get more information on the importance of the Fs and also why the actual T/S parameters are what is needed to determine a woofers output, not the xmax which isn’t a T/S parameter it’s a technical spec of the speaker.

Thankyou for actually posting some proof. This doesn’t say anything about the b&w crossovers though, you’re just speculating. 200hz is low. Going by the manual in the smd im-sg+ you can crossover 1/2 an octave above their Fs if you use a 24db slope, if that were the case for the b&w 200hz would be okay, using a 12db slope it’s advised to cross one octave above the Fs, we don’t know the b&o midrange Fs though so I can’t comment. Also in that post… The sws response is “poo” above 120hz, as stated in that post you linked, because it’s a subwoofer not a bass woofer. Also using a different impedance speaker moves the crossover point so it was probably 200hz before he change the impedance, I’m sure bmw knows better. Ive never said you overlap your crossover points either.

I’ll say it again one more time… Bmw puts bass woofers in their systems. The b&w 8” woofer is just the best performing BASS WOOFER in terms of having good response into sub-bass too compared to other factory underseats before it, that are also… wait for it… BASS WOOFERS! Idk how much more we need to beat this dead horse to get you to realize what they are. It’s NOT like the sws lol, the sws is built differently for a different purpose.

400hz is the low-midrange, not the midrange. Midrange is 500hz-2khz. And I know it might sound crazy but the human voice goes down below 200hz 😱. Look at some of the articles I linked to Argento. From what I got out of them and other audio forum discussions, it’s not hurting anything playing my underseats to 400hz nor does it sound bad like you think.
As for the midranges I’m not using my B&W midranges because I’m making custom crossovers for them. I’m using grs b100-4 midranges which have a lower Fs of 87hz, which also means they should have better response down low… but even they don’t sound good crossed at 200hz. Maybe they’re just junk idk. I even got some morel caw 428 midranges to try which have an Fs of 74hz, they aren’t very sensitive though so lots of power needed and even though they have better response down low, the b&w midranges sound better in the midrange where a midrange actually matters and their a lot more sensitive. Also did you just say a car door is a great enclosure for a midrange? A car in general is a terrible environment for audio. It can be decent with heavy amounts of sound deadening.

Uhh no. How the bass sounds is not limited to just the bass frequency range. Also I hate to break this to you but bass goes from 60-250hz 😕. Even sub-bass is effected from how the highs are tuned. Also the frequency range above 200hz is indeed called the mud, yes. It goes up to 500hz and it’s recommended to make Eq cut here to prevent vocals from sounding muddy. Actually in one of those articles I linked going over vocals it says: “Don’t be scared to reduce the gain around this area by about 5 to 10 decibels (dB) if you have to.”
And that’s exactly what I did to make the underseats sound good in this range. Specifically between 200hz & 300hz is where you hear vowels, there’s also a lot of energy (or a peak) in this range that needs to be reduced.
A guitar plays a wide frequency, if you want to add fullness to how a guitar sounds then you need a speaker that can create “fullness” around 240hz an 8” speaker that is stable past 240hz is a better candidate than a 4” speaker that CAN play down to 250hz (doesn’t this sound similar to the b&w underseats being ABLE to play sub frequencies, but it’s better to let a purpose built subwoofer cover those frequencies?). Cone area is pretty important and no the b&w midranges don’t have enough xmax to make up for this. In the higher frequencies of a guitar though, yeah absolutely the 4” midrange will do better, but even the tweeter will have to take over at some point when the midranges start beaming.

Really I appreciate your concern in this thread. And I thankyou for bringing up points like you have because It helped me to clarify a lot of things actually. Challenging the content is absolutely okay. Freedom of speech man. But I think we’ve done a great job putting good info into the thread, especially argento with his amazing Diy. Improvements will continue to be made along the way when we find out more and if you’d like to add any constructive data to this thread to update claims or provide better information, please do. It’ll only help everyone reading this thread get better info if they decide to add B&W speakers to their BMW.

Thankyou for your opinion, and no more arguing about the B&W underseats being subwoofers until real evidence is shown. Okay? Great. Thanks 🙏🏽

Okay, one last thing. Using google, the definition of subwoofers are speakers that are designed to play notes under 150hz. So the B&W underseat is a subwoofer. Atleast according to wikipedia, soundguys and klipsch

[RL18]

Okay Matti123 you can call it a subwoofer 🤝🏽

[RL18]

Matti123

Heres some T/S parameters for the B&W underseat & midrange:

[Best4x4xFar]

Check this out, can't even begin to imagine how much this cost..

(I know its an F15, but essentially the same space to work with)

[argento]

Originally Posted by RL18

argento

Yeah you are supposed to do them separately. But in your case you don’t have separate channels to apply EQ to. I think the key thing will be to get the EQ to be flat. Then fine tune it to how you like your music to sound from there. I do recommend only messing with the factory EQ though. Modifying with the android EQ could cause some issues. If you do I would start with the Oem Eq, then if you see some frequencies that need fine tuning you might be able to tweak the android Eq a little bit to get what you need. I don’t recommend making big adjustments on the android eq though.
Some articles to reference: https://carstereochick.com/2012/08/0...-audio-system/

https://www.hometheatershack.com/thr...3/#post-309825

https://flypaper.soundfly.com/produc...e-human-voice/

https://www.teachmeaudio.com/mixing/...audio-spectrum

On the 4100 it’ll show you the Dba in the “RTA” tab. I’m honestly not sure if it comes with pink noise, but I already had the SMD cd with pink noise so I just used that.

I’m sure the crossovers you had made are of good quality. Designing crossovers, he must know what he’s doing! I’m getting deeper into that stuff though so maybe once I get my crossovers completed I can switch gears and make a cheaper option for the b&w midrange/tweeter or if he somehow gave you a diagram of the crossover with the values I could make them.

I’ll be looking forward to hearing your results!

Thanks for the links, checking them out...

I agree with you about adjusting the OEM EQ. As we've dicussed, the factory 7 band EQ (actually, entire OEM tone menu) appears to be the last step before the signal is sent to the speakers, so it affects all the CIC audio modes and the AUX-IN.

I've been running the OEM EQ/tone flat, with no surround, and adjusting the 10band EQ on the Android side. Mainly because this is were I listen to my audio files and I'm very happy. The audio in OEM mode, all flat, is also pretty good likely b/c the XO and speakers are matched. But the OEM CIC DAC just isn't as good as the Android mode Dragonfly DAC I'm using.

Interested in your thoughts on a parametric EQ (available through the UAPP app on the Android side)?

The AC SA4100i is on the way...

[RL18]

Originally Posted by argento

Thanks for the links, checking them out...

I agree with you about adjusting the OEM EQ. As we've dicussed, the factory 7 band EQ (actually, entire OEM tone menu) appears to be the last step before the signal is sent to the speakers, so it affects all the CIC audio modes and the AUX-IN.

I've been running the OEM EQ/tone flat, with no surround, and adjusting the 10band EQ on the Android side. Mainly because this is were I listen to my audio files and I'm very happy. The audio in OEM mode, all flat, is also pretty good likely b/c the XO and speakers are matched. But the OEM CIC DAC just isn't as good as the Android mode Dragonfly DAC I'm using.

Interested in your thoughts on a parametric EQ (available through the UAPP app on the Android side)?

The AC SA4100i is on the way...

I don’t have any experience on a parametric equalizer. A quick google and it seems like some people like it. The problem I see though is that the android HU just puts out a bad signal to the factory aux (it sends the audio signal via the factory aux right?). I think your best bet would be to bypass the android headunit all together and just go directly to the factory aux with your DAC. I understand that defeats the purpose of having the updated HU, but it just doesn’t seem like it’ll fix the problem which is the HU itself. It might just cause unwanted distortion. It might even be better to use the USB since you’re signal is sent via the MOST cable, so it would just stay a digital signal till it gets to the amp, instead of switching from digital -> analog -> digital to the amp.

You can still try it though! I would just make the major adjustments in the OEM EQ first.

I’m probably going to end up bypassing the stock HU, upgrade to a different DSP and just run an optical cable up front then use a DAP for playing my music. I’m tired of dealing with the OEM EQ and having to compensate for it. Ugh

[argento]

Originally Posted by RL18

I don’t have any experience on a parametric equalizer. A quick google and it seems like some people like it. The problem I see though is that the android HU just puts out a bad signal to the factory aux (it sends the audio signal via the factory aux right?). I think your best bet would be to bypass the android headunit all together and just go directly to the factory aux with your DAC. I understand that defeats the purpose of having the updated HU, but it just doesn’t seem like it’ll fix the problem which is the HU itself. It might just cause unwanted distortion. It might even be better to use the USB since you’re signal is sent via the MOST cable, so it would just stay a digital signal till it gets to the amp, instead of switching from digital -> analog -> digital to the amp.

You can still try it though! I would just make the major adjustments in the OEM EQ first.

I’m probably going to end up bypassing the stock HU, upgrade to a different DSP and just run an optical cable up front then use a DAP for playing my music. I’m tired of dealing with the OEM EQ and having to compensate for it. Ugh

[UPDATED 29Oct2023:]

Not exactly, but I'm glad you brought this up. For those of you with Android (Ver.10 shown below) monitors this may explain some things, if you don't already know. There's a lot in this diagram, but the important things to know when looking at this are 1) Tihs is applicable to most HIFI, Top HIFI, Individual E70/E71 audio systems. 2) It shows three audio listening modes OEM, Android, or Device. 3) Only one (1) DAC can be used at a time, 4) No matter which MODE/DAC you choose, the OEM Tone Menu and 7-band EQ affects final output and 5) DACs directly affect audio quality. Lastly, I haven't really analyzed where in this diagram the center console USB ties in. I'd guess it goes directly to the OEM CIC. The PDF file is also attached so you can zoom in as needed, as well as an image with my DAC setup further below. This is based on testing, but always open to more info that can clarify actual functionality.

DIAGRAM_OEM v Android Modes_29Oct2023.pdf



Here I can choose between UAPP music files (DAC Aux) or Google Apps/Android Player (Green Aux Cable). I also have a separate cable that allows me to connect a device player directly to the DAC (in lieu of Android USB). Or you can get a player with a high end DAC and connect via the AUX IN. Tons of options. The noise filter is an AudioQuest Jitterbug.

[RL18]

argento

Ahh I see what you’re saying now. So when using the android usb side you get good audio quality (which also is what you want to use with the parametric EQ for), then the android aux is bad quality because of the DAC it’s using.

What the reasoning for having both options? So you can choose to use the android aux or the Usb?

That parametric EQ is something you use if you want to refine the eq a bit where you don’t have one available. Think for a headphone user where they don’t have one available. Some DAP (digital audio players) use these.

I say to not adjust the eq before the OEM HU because it’ll still make it’s own adjustments before it goes out to the amp.

Keep us updated on your results! You might find that just using the parametric EQ gets you the best results.

[argento]

RL18

I'd say the Android 10 Aux DAC is MUCH better than my 2018 Android Monitor, but lesser quality than the OEM CIC DAC. The Android tone menu is useless.

When I first went down this road it took me a while to figure things out and I didn't even know if I was going to be able to equalize the volume between the modes. So I left an option to remove the DAC and use the default Android Aux. I tested about 7 DAC's, but a forum member was already using the dragonfly red which pointed me in the right direction. Also as mentioned in the diagram note, if I'm using UAPP the rest of the Apps in the Android Monitor don't output sound through the USB DAC. IF I HAD TO, I could swap Aux cables and get sound for any other App, but not too practical. It's on my plate to figure out why this is the case...the solution could be buried in one of the many dozens of settings in UAPP...

I haven't decided to use the parametric EQ, but it's an option in UAPP. This should be fun. And if nothing else, I can now use the mic to clean up my home audio, lol.

Will do. Thanks for all your help.

[lucysparabola]

Originally Posted by RL18

Matti123

Heres some T/S parameters for the B&W underseat & midrange:

Can you clarify if your drivers are genuine B&W or the AliExpress counterfeits? I lost track of who besides SlowX6M has genuine B&W.

for reference, I have the fakies (got scammed on eBay) in my F10 and genuine B&W in my garage still needing to go into the car. Still making up my mind on if I'll do that swap or just grab some ES100Ks and call it a day.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by lucysparabola

Can you clarify if your drivers are genuine B&W or the AliExpress counterfeits? I lost track of who besides SlowX6M has genuine B&W.

for reference, I have the fakies (got scammed on eBay) in my F10 and genuine B&W in my garage still needing to go into the car. Still making up my mind on if I'll do that swap or just grab some ES100Ks and call it a day.

Pretty sure they have slightly different t/s parameters. Focal es100k is a good midrange but not really for Bmw. It has fs of 140hz and xmax of 2.3mm which both are quite bad for Bmws. They would need to be crossed somewhere around 200-300hz. Ideally you would get a 4" driver with atleast 4mm xmax and fs below 100hz. That would work well in Bmws

[lucysparabola]

Originally Posted by Matti123

Pretty sure they have slightly different t/s parameters. Focal es100k is a good midrange but not really for Bmw. It has fs of 140hz and xmax of 2.3mm which both are quite bad for Bmws. They would need to be crossed somewhere around 200-300hz. Ideally you would get a 4" driver with atleast 4mm xmax and fs below 100hz. That would work well in Bmws

right, yeah the genuine v fakes are definitely different... that's why I'm seeking the clarification. xD

ES100K is widely used in BMW aftermarket applications, and has been for years. it's suited perfectly well for them.

[RL18]

Originally Posted by lucysparabola

Can you clarify if your drivers are genuine B&W or the AliExpress counterfeits? I lost track of who besides SlowX6M has genuine B&W.

for reference, I have the fakies (got scammed on eBay) in my F10 and genuine B&W in my garage still needing to go into the car. Still making up my mind on if I'll do that swap or just grab some ES100Ks and call it a day.

They are all genuine. All my b&w speakers were bought using bmw genuine part #s. The only aliexpress I’ve gotten were the second pair of underseats I got, which are infact still genuine going by T/S parameters.

I’m pretty sure B&W speakers are manufactured in china btw. Only certain ones like 800 series aren’t. And even then I think the speakers themself are still from china, just the cabinet is made in house.

If you want to spend the $2,250 on 3 pairs of midranges then go for it. That model also isn’t a drop in option and would require adapters to fit too. I’ve tried some of their speakers before and don’t really care for their sound.

Actually if you wanted to spend the money these morels would be better: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210IRB...42.html?tp=105

Higher sensitivity (92db vs 90db) so they’d be a bit louder than the focals, assuming your using factory power. If going aftermarket they can take almost double the power (100wrms vs 60wrms). Personally I like the morel sound better too. Although $200 more expensive per…

Also if you compare the crossover point the morels are 2.7khz vs 3.5khz. I tend to like a lower crossover point because something like a 4” midrange will start beaming, or becoming directional, above 3khz. Also focal tweeters tend to be more “bright” where morel tweeters are “warmer”. That part is personal taste, but I prefer warmer sound. Midrange focal is known for being very realistic/neutral sounding with morel being more lively/punchy.

The b&ws though I think are the best value. Good power handling, high impedance (which translates to better sq), and a very sensitive speaker. I’d guess around 93db (remember what I said about speaker sensitivity of 8ohm speakers vs 4ohms speaker).
I purchased a continuum midrange from the newest b&w systems which are being using in the XM and i5 which I’ll be testing too. Supposed to be a superior cone material over the aramid fiber found on the “older” b&w midranges.

[lucysparabola]

Originally Posted by RL18

They are all genuine. All my b&w speakers were bought using bmw genuine part #s. The only aliexpress I’ve gotten were the second pair of underseats I got, which are infact still genuine going by T/S parameters.

I’m pretty sure B&W speakers are manufactured in china btw. Only certain ones like 800 series aren’t. And even then I think the speakers themself are still from china, just the cabinet is made in house.

If you want to spend the $2,250 on 3 pairs of midranges then go for it. That model also isn’t a drop in option and would require adapters to fit too. I’ve tried some of their speakers before and don’t really care for their sound.

Actually if you wanted to spend the money these morels would be better: https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210IRB...42.html?tp=105

Higher sensitivity (92db vs 90db) so they’d be a bit louder than the focals, assuming your using factory power. If going aftermarket they can take almost double the power (100wrms vs 60wrms). Personally I like the morel sound better too. Although $200 more expensive per…

Also if you compare the crossover point the morels are 2.7khz vs 3.5khz. I tend to like a lower crossover point because something like a 4” midrange will start beaming, or becoming directional, above 3khz. Also focal tweeters tend to be more “bright” where morel tweeters are “warmer”. That part is personal taste, but I prefer warmer sound. Midrange focal is known for being very realistic/neutral sounding with morel being more lively/punchy.

The b&ws though I think are the best value. Good power handling, high impedance (which translates to better sq), and a very sensitive speaker. I’d guess around 93db (remember what I said about speaker sensitivity of 8ohm speakers vs 4ohms speaker).
I purchased a continuum midrange from the newest b&w systems which are being using in the XM and i5 which I’ll be testing too. Supposed to be a superior cone material over the aramid fiber found on the “older” b&w midranges.

wow, so you measured both and they're the same? This is interesting to say the least.

as for the Focal, I definitely wouldn't be buying those component sets lol. I can get the mid drivers each for $88, as can anyone else buying them from 12volt-shop in Latvia. 3-4 day worldwide delivery from an authorized Focal dealer, and yeah I've bought from him before. I have a set of adapters already too. anyway, it was just an aside about the Focals. my preference still is the B&W. I have a pair of genuine Diamond dome tweeters that will go in with whatever change I make too.

I have a genuine and a fake B&W mid I could send you for testing their parameters... would you be up for doing that? If you haven't tested them already? I have fake tweeters too that you could test.

[RL18]

Originally Posted by lucysparabola

wow, so you measured both and they're the same? This is interesting to say the least.

as for the Focal, I definitely wouldn't be buying those component sets lol. I can get the mid drivers each for $88, as can anyone else buying them from 12volt-shop in Latvia. 3-4 day worldwide delivery from an authorized Focal dealer, and yeah I've bought from him before. I have a set of adapters already too. anyway, it was just an aside about the Focals. my preference still is the B&W. I have a pair of genuine Diamond dome tweeters that will go in with whatever change I make too.

I have a genuine and a fake B&W mid I could send you for testing their parameters... would you be up for doing that? If you haven't tested them already? I have fake tweeters too that you could test.

Yes thats just the 8” underseats though. I can pull out my genuine 8” underseats if you want and take pics side by side if needed. But considering they’re identical visually and T/S parameter wise they must be real. They just don’t have the bmw markings on them.

Ah yes I bought my focal amps through him on Ebay . Focal stuff is wayyy overpriced. I know it’s of quality but still…

Yeah sure I can test them for you. Just PM me and I can send you my info. I have the genuine midrange so no need to send that one. And I don’t have any genuine tweeters, are the fakes diamond or the aluminum tweeters? If aluminum I wouldn’t even use them. Something like morel mt120n are way better. Those aluminum dome tweeters require a higher crossover point, you want something that can crossover lower.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by lucysparabola

right, yeah the genuine v fakes are definitely different... that's why I'm seeking the clarification. xD

ES100K is widely used in BMW aftermarket applications, and has been for years. it's suited perfectly well for them.

Es100k has been used in applications where the door mids play down to 300hz, then the underseats are bandpassed around 80-300 and they have an additional subwoofer for sub bass.. But if you want to use only oem locations then es100k is a terrible choice

[lucysparabola]

Originally Posted by RL18

Yes thats just the 8” underseats though. I can pull out my genuine 8” underseats if you want and take pics side by side if needed. But considering they’re identical visually and T/S parameter wise they must be real. They just don’t have the bmw markings on them.

Ah yes I bought my focal amps through him on Ebay . Focal stuff is wayyy overpriced. I know it’s of quality but still…

Yeah sure I can test them for you. Just PM me and I can send you my info. I have the genuine midrange so no need to send that one. And I don’t have any genuine tweeters, are the fakes diamond or the aluminum tweeters? If aluminum I wouldn’t even use them. Something like morel mt120n are way better. Those aluminum dome tweeters require a higher crossover point, you want something that can crossover lower.

Will do. You're right about most of the B&Ws being made in China per BMW anyway. The mids are for sure, and the aluminum tweeters as well. At one point both the mids and the subs were made in Mexico & Hungary respectively, but I think the mids went entirely to China around 2018/19. The subs and diamond tweeters are still made in HU based on what I've seen. it's quite interesting to see the diversity in mfr locations, but it's not of much bother if we have definitive proof of the specs as you seem to have. amazing.

I'll PM you shortly. this is a great service to the community you'll be doing. it's quite appreciated.