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      05-18-2015, 05:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by crawfordbay View Post
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Black Series = GTS possibly?
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      05-18-2015, 05:48 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace
Ok, I will go ahead and beat a dead horse.... who cares if the automatic is faster than the manual? It is a damned street car. A couple tenths of a second don't matter. The enjoyment and how the car makes you feel do.

Just like a Z06 might be faster than a Cayman GTS, but the cayman is a more gratifying experience.... to some. Moral of the story- just give people the choice.

He mentions that the number of people opting for manuals is decreasing... well that goes without saying! The availability is decreased dramatically!
I thought that exact thing too reading it.

I don't think it's the reason per se, it's just one of several. The main reason being that no one buys manuals anymore. It is just a poor choice of words why to consider dropping the manual.
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      05-18-2015, 06:02 PM   #25
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I always thought AMG Black versions were a direct reaction to existing BMW M models.
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      05-18-2015, 06:37 PM   #26
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Too little too late. I've made the switch to American. Nothing can beat the performance/$ of the Vette. I picked up an amazing deal on a C5 Z06 and it runs circles around my E92 any day. Drop maybe $10k into it and you've got a track beast from hell.

Then again, I may go pick up a next-gen 5er for daily cruising. BMW does luxury and style right.
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      05-18-2015, 06:45 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Too little too late. I've made the switch to American. Nothing can beat the performance/$ of the Vette. I picked up an amazing deal on a C5 Z06 and it runs circles around my E92 any day. Drop maybe $10k into it and you've got a track beast from hell.

Then again, I may go pick up a next-gen 5er for daily cruising. BMW does luxury and style right.
Agreed I was invited to an M event at Palm Springs and I was not very impressed with any of the New M models. I was not the only one that felt this way at the event.

I think Benzs is doing some more interesting things.
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      05-18-2015, 06:53 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCarsFan
Quote:
Originally Posted by crawfordbay View Post
+1
+2
Black Series = GTS possibly?
Bring it BMW!
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      05-18-2015, 06:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clubsport View Post
I always thought AMG Black versions were a direct reaction to existing BMW M models.
Mercedes AMG has had direct competition for existing M models since the 90s, and AMG models that BMW doesn't even have yet. The Black Series are a step above---they are the batshit crazy models. Like the SLK AMG Black series and the CLK AMG Black Series and the SL65 AMG Black Series. That car had 660 hp and had well over 700 lb ft of torque. I guess BMW's equivalent would be the CSL/GTS/Competition Package (for the current M5/M6/M6 Gran Coupe.
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      05-18-2015, 07:26 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamdabest1 View Post
Still don't like that this bum refuses to offer x drive on an M car. I can pretty much guarantee over 50% of M sales in the northeast would be with x drive . All the attorneys I work with refuse to get m cars because they want awd for snow but like the look of M cars even if they dont need the car for track duties.
there's the M suvs, M cars should be track cars that can be driven on the street,that is their original philosophy and changing it because some people would buy it, well, it's the same old question of being true to the values vs being more commercial by searching profit blindly, and I think most companies, including BMW, being seduced into the latter is one of the things that have the world as it is now. A company, as a person, should have principles and be true to them, when they forget what they were and start looking for profit is when bad things happen.
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      05-18-2015, 07:26 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace View Post
Ok, I will go ahead and beat a dead horse.... who cares if the automatic is faster than the manual? It is a damned street car. A couple tenths of a second don't matter. The enjoyment and how the car makes you feel do.

Just like a Z06 might be faster than a Cayman GTS, but the cayman is a more gratifying experience.... to some. Moral of the story- just give people the choice.

He mentions that the number of people opting for manuals is decreasing... well that goes without saying! The availability is decreased dramatically!
That's a primary reason. BMW has pushed the manual out as much as possible from dealer stock. People don't even ask as they have never seen one. They have on purpose turned it into a self fulfilling prophecy. I'm a two car guy. One SUV and then a manual for fun. They drop the manual I move on. This guy is the one responsible for no manual option on the RS-5 and now the new R8. Translation is he will drop the manual from bmw too.... F him.
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      05-18-2015, 07:43 PM   #32
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AWD on the M5/M6 makes sense. They are already big/heavy straight line luxury rockets anyway

If those AWD commuters are what it takes to keep making the M3 and smaller cars lighter and more hard core I'm all for that

I also still keep my fingers crossed there is another Z4M coupe that uses carbon fiber tech to come in under 3000lb and paired with the M3/M4 drivetrain.. Drool.
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      05-18-2015, 08:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conradb View Post
Too little too late. I've made the switch to American. Nothing can beat the performance/$ of the Vette. I picked up an amazing deal on a C5 Z06 and it runs circles around my E92 any day. Drop maybe $10k into it and you've got a track beast from hell.

Then again, I may go pick up a next-gen 5er for daily cruising. BMW does luxury and style right.
Awesome, C5 Z06= my fav vette, I will eventually own one for a track car/toy. My mention of Z06 was the c7.... My dad has an 09 Z51 Corvette Coupe with a stick, which is a lot like the c5 Z06- same gearing, similar cam profile and suspension tuning. That car is a rocket, and I enjoy driving it, and think I could do it asa a daily driver for a few months a year (I'd have to change the exhaust, I hate that damn muffler that opens at 3500 rpm... we put LS7 manifolds/cats/x pipe on it ). Even though that car has like double the power as my 330i (well, damn near anyways) and world class handling at the limit, it misses the mark in terms of "feeling" sporty. For example, the steering is a LOT lighter than my e90, and the turn in isn't quite as sporty, though a performance alignment helped quite a bit. Don't even get me started on the seats that feel like they came out of a 1989 Beretta.

And as far as driving a stick as a daily driver goes, my e90 is just amazing. I have put 100,000 miles on it in 6 years (had like 50k when I got it in 2009). The combination of the clutch take up, awesome gearing, fantastic shifter, perfectly spaced pedals and dual mass flywheel make it seamless to drive in traffic. Some stick cars just aren't awesome to drive in the city. This car and all of its parts are integrated together SO WELL, it seems as if BMW designed it as if it was the only
option available. Add in a perfect seating position, visibility and on and on, it just makes an ideal daily driver. And the damn thing is almost 10 years old with 160,000 miles.

I del like if other car makers NAILED IT like bmw did with my 330i, more people would want to drive a stick. My cousin bought a chevy cruise (company car, limited options) with their 1.4t and a 6 speed stick. It's not the worst car I've ever driven, but dammit, the shifter is awful, the pedals are spaced terribly (not even centered with my hips) and you can't easily rev match due to the pedal layout. Add in awful visibility ... well its just a shame the company wouldn't let him get a golf or jetta for the same, or even less money.

Wow I got way the hell off topic in an attempt to illustrate my point!

At the end of the day, how much money does it really cost to bring manual trans cars to market. I can't think that BMW lost a dime selling stick shift M5s in the US. It gives them credibility that gets people in the show room to buy, even if they don't buy that car. Just like the old "win on sunday, sell on monday deal." Chalk up selling stick shift cars to marketing expense. And bring back wagons for the same reason.

Hell, it can't cost them any more than bringing low volume cars like the 5er GT.

Don't tell me making stick shift available in any car in the line up is cost prohibitive when they have the audacity to market 5er GT, X4, X6, 3er GT, i3, i8, and on and on.

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      05-18-2015, 09:41 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch View Post
BMW M is working on an R8 competitor - but in its per usual cryptic way it is not saying so
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      05-18-2015, 11:42 PM   #35
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im worried where M is headed. No manual means I'll likely stop buying new M models and head in the opposite direction, probably an E46 next, or maybe back to the E9x. Having a manual is one of the joys of having a performance car.
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      05-19-2015, 02:10 AM   #36
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Now these idiots start to realise that M starts to mean only a sticker and aero kit not much more for ordinary people.
Of course they will need to make Black Series -like models as M is becoming so abused that in a short future people will start to think that BMW has been rebranded to M.

Hey mate! What a nice M car you bought. Is it Black Series?
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      05-19-2015, 04:30 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamdabest1
Still don't like that this bum refuses to offer x drive on an M car. I can pretty much guarantee over 50% of M sales in the northeast would be with x drive . All the attorneys I work with refuse to get m cars because they want awd for snow but like the look of M cars even if they dont need the car for track duties.
I suspect the broader range of M Performance automobiles will suit this audience.
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      05-19-2015, 05:47 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace
Ok, I will go ahead and beat a dead horse.... who cares if the automatic is faster than the manual? It is a damned street car. A couple tenths of a second don't matter. The enjoyment and how the car makes you feel do.

Just like a Z06 might be faster than a Cayman GTS, but the cayman is a more gratifying experience.... to some. Moral of the story- just give people the choice.

He mentions that the number of people opting for manuals is decreasing... well that goes without saying! The availability is decreased dramatically!
I hope they save the manuals too but the thing to understand from BMW's perspective is that the cost of development for a transmission is non-trivial. There have to be enough buyers so it's more complicated than just giving customers the choice.

I do hope that people from BMW read this forum because a lot of us will leave the brand of we can't get a third pedal.
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      05-19-2015, 06:55 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemex12 View Post
there's the M suvs, M cars should be track cars that can be driven on the street,that is their original philosophy and changing it because some people would buy it, well, it's the same old question of being true to the values vs being more commercial by searching profit blindly, and I think most companies, including BMW, being seduced into the latter is one of the things that have the world as it is now. A company, as a person, should have principles and be true to them, when they forget what they were and start looking for profit is when bad things happen.
BMW is having trouble hearing you over all of the money they're making off of X5 M and X6 M's.

The funny thing about comments like this is that if they followed your advice, they'd of gone belly up long time ago.
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      05-19-2015, 10:09 AM   #40
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Very well said sir


Quote:
Originally Posted by StealYourFace View Post
And as far as driving a stick as a daily driver goes, my e90 is just amazing. I have put 100,000 miles on it in 6 years (had like 50k when I got it in 2009). The combination of the clutch take up, awesome gearing, fantastic shifter, perfectly spaced pedals and dual mass flywheel make it seamless to drive in traffic. Some stick cars just aren't awesome to drive in the city. This car and all of its parts are integrated together SO WELL, it seems as if BMW designed it as if it was the only
option available. Add in a perfect seating position, visibility and on and on, it just makes an ideal daily driver. And the damn thing is almost 10 years old with 160,000 miles.

I del like if other car makers NAILED IT like bmw did with my 330i, more people would want to drive a stick.
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      05-19-2015, 01:34 PM   #41
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The V10 idea seems cool, but don't you think the engine will be too muted? The block will be tiny! 3L and two turbos? People are mad at the lack of proper noise from the S55 4,4 liter, how do you think the 3,0 liter v10 would fare? But honestly, the V10 idea sounds cool, but definitely is something we shouldn't hope for, and expect in the next M car.
I think it'll be a higher pitched sound more than muted... F1 cars pre-V6 were tiny 1.5L V10's but they were loud as f**k
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      05-19-2015, 01:53 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gjm127 View Post
I think it'll be a higher pitched sound more than muted... F1 cars pre-V6 were tiny 1.5L V10's but they were loud as f**k
Keep in mind that these beasts rev to 20,000 rpm. And there is no sound insulation.
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      05-19-2015, 01:59 PM   #43
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If BMW gets rid of the manual transmission, the competition from Mercedes Benz will increase again. A lot of manual transmission guys won't even look at a Benz because it's automatic only. If BMW gets rid of the MT, a lot of those manual guys will go elsewhere, including the Benz.
That is a very good point you have. I know I'll never seriously consider a sports car if it doesn't have a manual, which is why I love BMW and Porsche. But if BMW gets rid of the manual, then you can bet I will automatically unfilter my criteria to include other models.

The day you can't get a manual in a BMW M car is going to be extremely sad for everyone, and I hope BMW can prolong the coming of that day for as long as possible.

I have to stop, thinking about this just makes me
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      05-19-2015, 02:01 PM   #44
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I was a manual driver for a million years. The M DCT is pretty awesome. It does relieve left foot fatigue and is otherwise pretty much a manny tranny.

(Is this going to start a war?)
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