The best audio upgrade for the X5

[RL18]

Originally Posted by Matti123

Yes time alignment is done once but dirac is way beyond that. Equalizer adjustment on the fly is a huge upgrade already. The faster you go the more of your bass and midbass drowns out. Dirac corrects this. Its awesome.

752 is a huge upgrade surely. 2db more at lower frequency, thats great already. Also we both know music is much more than decibels so that is quite a funny way to compare the systems as just a 2db upgrade. And 2db is noticeable, maybe sometime in the future you will get a dsp and see how -2db or +2db makes a difference that is easy to hear.
I don't know where you get the 250W vs 300W for the underseats? Logic 7/Top hifi professional is 2x70W@4ohm for the underseats vs 2x150W@8ohm on the individual system.

Yes component setup would be better than coaxial if it was correctly filtered, unfortunately this is not the case with logic 7. Midrange is missing low pass and tweeter is missing proper high pass.

Also the upgrade is worth it as it keeps everything oem and raises the value of your car unlike aftermarket audio upgrades. Most people don't want additional subwoofer cnlosures on the trunk etc.

I’m not arguing the dsp adjustment on the fly.
2 db more is not a big upgrade. And I do have a dsp lol. +/- 2 db on a dsp and 2db more at max volume are different things. And logic 7 goes down to 20hz vs 18hz in 752, which btw most music is refined to 30hz aside from a some music that might reach 20hz. And you are wrong, logic 7 gets 125w each @8ohms for the underseats. Also stating power without know speaker sensitivity is useless. Btw I doubt an 8” can handle 18hz with any authority. I’m using B&W 8” underseats getting atleast 250w each and they are cut off at 80hz. My audiomobile 10” sub plays down to 20hz.

Any of the components setups have a high pass filter. The tweeters are cutoff at like 6-8khz. They do need a proper crossover but crossover aren’t hard to come by or make on your own.

And any audio enthusiast would pick an aftermarket system vs the factory system. In no world would a proper aftermarket system with amps/dsp/speakers devalue a car lol. How many amps does your 752 system pull? Like 40amps? Also was the 752 even available for the e70? Because this is a thread for e70s

[argento]

I've learned a lot from this thread. I have the S752A in my 13E70X5M (most late models do). Like the OP I also upgraded to plug and play B&W speakers, subs, but added custom matched crossovers at all 7 locations (not subs). I wouldn't argue having an aftermarket system where you can tune each speaker from your device isn't more desireable than a stock bmw system. However, I went the route of this thread topic so the upgrade could be easily reversible and as a result I got a suprisingly tangible improvement in sound.

I learned that the B&W speakers are "decent" from a high-end speaker designer and by frequency analysis. The B&W sub install is almost a must and also plug/play and if want to give them more wattage there is an easy path for that as well. I learned that having the B&W subs and upgrading the center channel with B&W tweeter/mid (similar total impedance to single coax) is also a big improvment if you don't want to spend the extra $ on 12 more B&W spearkers. I learned the sound improves using the UAPP app in the Android Monitor with a Dragonfly Cobalt DAC. I also learned I couldn't find the Individual amp in ISTA to tell me wire polarity...so I used a PT9A+ to confirm polarity of the amp source wires and B&W speakers. I also learned that over time the filters/capacitors in your factory system degrade, changing the crossover points and muddying up the sound. If I want to return the old S752A system, I just have to remove panels, swap out the speakers, and reconnect. And I'm still learning...

For the general differences from S677A to S752A you can look these up, but the S752A is a step above, with the most significant differences being more wattage, hexacone speaker material, and OEM diplexers/crossovers in the front doors. The downside being if you have the Active Sound Design unit which pumps exhaust frequency into your speakers:

S752A Individual Audio System: DSP Amplifier 9 Channel/825 max watts, 18Hz-24kHz (reference: BMW Group VZ-42, June 2007, “752 BMW Individual High End Audio System); Subwoofers 2x150W, 75W et al.

S677A Top HIFI Audio System: Logic 7 DSP Amplifier 9 Channel/420-480 watts (reference: BMW Group VM-42, June 2007, “677 Hi-Fi System Professional”)

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

I’m not arguing the dsp adjustment on the fly.
2 db more is not a big upgrade. And I do have a dsp lol. +/- 2 db on a dsp and 2db more at max volume are different things. And logic 7 goes down to 20hz vs 18hz in 752, which btw most music is refined to 30hz aside from a some music that might reach 20hz. And you are wrong, logic 7 gets 125w each @8ohms for the underseats. Also stating power without know speaker sensitivity is useless. Btw I doubt an 8” can handle 18hz with any authority. I’m using B&W 8” underseats getting atleast 250w each and they are cut off at 80hz. My audiomobile 10” sub plays down to 20hz.

Any of the components setups have a high pass filter. The tweeters are cutoff at like 6-8khz. They do need a proper crossover but crossover aren’t hard to come by or make on your own.

And any audio enthusiast would pick an aftermarket system vs the factory system. In no world would a proper aftermarket system with amps/dsp/speakers devalue a car lol. How many amps does your 752 system pull? Like 40amps? Also was the 752 even available for the e70? Because this is a thread for e70s

First of all logic 7 goes down to 30hz according to spec sheet. Which is a huge difference to 18hz of individual audio. Most music has content in 20hz so its quite an important difference.
Logic 7 gets 2x70W@4ohm according to spec sheet. However watts don't make that much of a difference. And yes, the stated 18hz of individual audio is -3db. On my e60 with one of the smaller enclosures, the B&W underseats peak at 50hz when it doesn't have any eq. However I can make the whole system play flat down to 20hz if I wanted.
I would pick oem individual audio for my e60 rather than system I made using b&w speakers and match up7. Why? Because individual audio raises the price of my car and its fully oem. However its more expensive to retrofit.
Why are you talking about current draw? I don't have the individual audio system.

[N54andS63TU]

Hi guys, I have 2008 135i with CCC just updated my Logic7 420watt amp to/from E70 600watt amp, everything was plug and play except I had to bridge pin1 and pin2 in optiocal loop connector to get the amp to turn on, I have an issue it keep blowing 20amp fuse for radio inside glove box at high volumes.
Anyone else ran into this issue?

[N54andS63TU]

thinking of plugin it directly to the battery, will the amp stay on all the time? and will be it okay with car running getting 14.3-14.7v directly from battery?

[RL18]

Originally Posted by Matti123

First of all logic 7 goes down to 30hz according to spec sheet. Which is a huge difference to 18hz of individual audio. Most music has content in 20hz so its quite an important difference.
Logic 7 gets 2x70W@4ohm according to spec sheet. However watts don't make that much of a difference. And yes, the stated 18hz of individual audio is -3db. On my e60 with one of the smaller enclosures, the B&W underseats peak at 50hz when it doesn't have any eq. However I can make the whole system play flat down to 20hz if I wanted.
I would pick oem individual audio for my e60 rather than system I made using b&w speakers and match up7. Why? Because individual audio raises the price of my car and its fully oem. However its more expensive to retrofit.
Why are you talking about current draw? I don't have the individual audio system.

To clear up the confusion on the logic 7 system in the E70 x5 this gives specs on the sound systems: https://ia801005.us.archive.org/11/i...%20Systems.pdf
Top hifi is the logic 7, at least that’s what I assume. If you’re going off the e60 system then it’ll be different. And no most music is refined to 30hz. Some genres/songs play below but the overwhelming majority of music is refined to 30hz. Also most bass energy in music is between 80-160hz. There are some exceptions obviously. Lots of edm music has sub bass too but most sub bass is around 40-60hz.
If the specs you’re given are for the e70 “individual system” then the difference you hear is hardly from the power or the speakers, it’s the processing. Yes processing is very important and can make a system sound much better I’m not denying that and I know first hand since I have a dsp in my system, and I wouldn’t recommend going aftermarket without one in our bmws because of the crazy eq tunes that needs to be fixed and in favor of using the underseats with a proper sub.. I’m not putting down the idea that someone could swap to the individual and keep everything oem for better sound, I’m just pointing out that the improvement is from the processing and it just sounds better, it’s not louder. You’re over simplifying audio, it’s not that simple to make something “louder”.

I’m sure you were disappointed with the match 7 amp because it’s hardly an upgrade if I’m being honest, especially how you had it set up. The sub channel output is rated for 2ohms and the B&W sub is 8ohms, so they were getting like 40w each. The B&Ws response drops off below 80hz in a sealed enclosure too. I personally played my B&W underseats down to 25hz with 105w each and had good results, but with 250w each and a real subwoofer, they don’t need to play below 80hz. And they cannot play flat down to 20hz, they drop off in response starting at 80hz then a lot at 40hz. If you ported the enclosure, like it is in the B&W system, they’d have a flat response to about 30hz. It’s a slim 8” woofer so they’re a better midbass driver than a subwoofer. Of course I’ve found out that it’s very hard to time align and level match a subwoofer to mid-bass but when you get it right It’s actually louder and sounds much better, than trying to get it all from one woofer.
A proper aftermarket system will outperform any oem system. I bring up amps because bmw specs max power, not rms power. My system in total is 160amps fused and puts out about 1,750w continuously and honestly still probably a bit less than that. I believe the B&W system amp has a 60amp fuse, so I doubt it’s 1400w continuous, more like half that and they used more sensitive (all 8ohm) speakers to get it to be “louder” and more efficient. Again there is much more to audio than what you make it out to be.

[RL18]

Originally Posted by N54andS63TU

Hi guys, I have 2008 135i with CCC just updated my Logic7 420watt amp to/from E70 600watt amp, everything was plug and play except I had to bridge pin1 and pin2 in optiocal loop connector to get the amp to turn on, I have an issue it keep blowing 20amp fuse for radio inside glove box at high volumes.
Anyone else ran into this issue?

Doesn’t the headunit need to be coded if you upgraded to a different system?

[RL18]

Originally Posted by argento

I've learned a lot from this thread. I have the S752A in my 13E70X5M (most late models do). Like the OP I also upgraded to plug and play B&W speakers, subs, but added custom matched crossovers at all 7 locations (not subs). I wouldn't argue having an aftermarket system where you can tune each speaker from your device isn't more desireable than a stock bmw system. However, I went the route of this thread topic so the upgrade could be easily reversible and as a result I got a suprisingly tangible improvement in sound.

I learned that the B&W speakers are "decent" from a high-end speaker designer and by frequency analysis. The B&W sub install is almost a must and also plug/play and if want to give them more wattage there is an easy path for that as well. I learned that having the B&W subs and upgrading the center channel with B&W tweeter/mid (similar total impedance to single coax) is also a big improvment if you don't want to spend the extra $ on 12 more B&W spearkers. I learned the sound improves using the UAPP app in the Android Monitor with a Dragonfly Cobalt DAC. I also learned I couldn't find the Individual amp in ISTA to tell me wire polarity...so I used a PT9A+ to confirm polarity of the amp source wires and B&W speakers. I also learned that over time the filters/capacitors in your factory system degrade, changing the crossover points and muddying up the sound. If I want to return the old S752A system, I just have to remove panels, swap out the speakers, and reconnect. And I'm still learning...

For the general differences from S677A to S752A you can look these [...]

Ahh gotcha so mostly/only 2013 x5m got the 752. So what about that article that I linked above? I thought you linked that before. Do they not list the 752 system on there? Also SlowX6M has the 677 system right?

The B&Ws are probably the best speaker upgrade just becuase they most likely are more sensitive. And you went a step above with custom crossovers to further refine.

[argento]

That link is accurate, except it’s for the CCC and I have CIC…and it’s for TOP HIFI, not Individual/S752A. Guessing that since they didn’t offer 752A until later models, it wasn’t mentioned that early on…but the S752A was available at that time in other bmw models.

The S752A was an option on X5M/X6M’s not sure when it started, but seems to be more prevalent than not in later model X5M/X6M’s.

Here’s where I’m stumped tho…in ISTA+ they have the HIFI and TOP HIFI amplifiers and I couldn’t find the Individual/S752A Amplifier. My wire colors didn’t match either of the HIFI or TOP HIFI amplifier SSP schematics…so to get polarity correct I bought the PT9A+ and rechecked every location in my car, ugh. BUT it was good b/c I got some wrong. I originally assumed all the solid wires were positive…turns out all but two were positive, so glad I double checked. Luckily it’s all in my DIY I just posted in my thread so if you have S752A you now know the wire colors or at least have a way to determine them for your car.

Yes, he has the 677 TOP HIFI.

And I can also state that, via the AUX-IN, I can reduce the UAPP EQ 31Hz and it makes a tangible/audible difference in low end bass…so it appears to reproduce HZ that low…

THANK YOU to all of those who responded to this thread, especially the OP SlowX6M and RL18…here is the DIY I wrote to upgrade E70/E71 speakers with B&W all around:

Installation_BMW S6F1A BW replacing BMW S752A Individual_9July2023.pdf

[RL18]

argento on the custom crossovers you have, would you mind telling by me what your capacitor & inductor values are? I’d like to compare them to my current values on the custom crossover I’m making

My tweeter is different and I’m level matching my tweeter differently but it would be cool to see how they compare.

Great work btw! Very professional diy and lots of great info!

[argento]

Thanks RL18, I don’t mind sharing any info I’ve collected. I’ll look through my notes to see if have the capacitance or if I have a pic of the XO before wiring and hot glue.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

To clear up the confusion on the logic 7 system in the E70 x5 this gives specs on the sound systems: https://ia801005.us.archive.org/11/i...%20Systems.pdf
Top hifi is the logic 7, at least that’s what I assume. If you’re going off the e60 system then it’ll be different. And no most music is refined to 30hz. Some genres/songs play below but the overwhelming majority of music is refined to 30hz. Also most bass energy in music is between 80-160hz. There are some exceptions obviously. Lots of edm music has sub bass too but most sub bass is around 40-60hz.
If the specs you’re given are for the e70 “individual system” then the difference you hear is hardly from the power or the speakers, it’s the processing. Yes processing is very important and can make a system sound much better I’m not denying that and I know first hand since I have a dsp in my system, and I wouldn’t recommend going aftermarket without one in our bmws because of the crazy eq tunes that needs to be fixed and in favor of using the underseats with a proper sub.. I’m not putting down the idea that someone could swap to the individual and keep everything oem for better sound, I’m just pointing out that the improvement is from the processing and it just sounds better, it’s not louder. You’re over simplifying audio, it’s not that simple to make something “louder”.

I’m sure you were disappointed with the match 7 amp because it’s hardly an upgrade if I’m being honest, especially how you had it set up. The sub channel output is rated for 2ohms and the B&W sub is 8ohms, so they were getting like 40w each. The B&Ws response drops off below 80hz in a sealed enclosure too. I personally played my B&W underseats down to 25hz with 105w each and had good results, but with 250w each and a real subwoofer, they don’t need to play below 80hz. And they cannot play flat down to 20hz, they drop off in response starting at 80hz then a lot at 40hz. If you ported the enclosure, like it is in the B&W system, they’d have a flat response to about 30hz. It’s a slim 8” woofer so they’re a better midbass driver than a subwoofer. Of course I’ve found out that it’s very hard to time align and level match a subwoofer to mid-bass but when you get it right It’s actually louder and sounds much better, than trying to get it all from one woofer.
A proper aftermarket system will outperform any oem system. I bring up amps because bmw specs max power, not rms power. My system in total is 160amps fused and puts out about 1,750w continuously and honestly still probably a bit less than that. I believe the B&W system amp has a 60amp fuse, so I doubt it’s 1400w continuous, more like half that and they used more sensitive (all 8ohm) speakers to get it to be “louder” and more efficient. Again there is much more to audio than what you make it out to be.

Yes top hifi is same as logic 7. All music has 20hz frequencies, you can use an RTA to test that. Most bass energy is definetely not 80-160hz. Again I recommend using an RTA to actually see where most songs play bass, but in my opinion 40-60hz is where most bass is on most songs.

Yes finally you are catching on. Watts doesn't make much of a difference to anything, its the processing. Superior processing makes individual audio so much better than logic 7. Dirac is wonderful.

What do you mean with "it just sounds better, its not louder"? Isn't that the whole point to sound better lol. Nobody cares which is louder but spec sheet still says individual audio is 2db louder. I think you are misunderstanding being louder to being good. Loud doesn't mean good.

I am not disappointed with match up7bmw, its an amazing amp. Nothing better for the same price. Until now I have wanted to use oem B&W speakers because that actually raises the value of the car but that is also holding the system back little bit. I haven't measured my B&W subwoofers impedance yet but I think they are 4ohm which means they are getting 80W rms. They are not in a sealed enclosure, e60 already has vented enclosures. But e60 enclosures are smaller and its not as rigid overall since car weighs much less than new bmws. A lot of energy is lost to vibration. Hence why their peak is 50hz on my system. Drops over 10db till 20hz. I wouldn't use the B&W as midbass, they don't sound good doing so because of their xmax being around 10mm and fs of around 40hz. I have mine low passed around 150hz because higher than that they start to mud up.

You need to spend a lot of money if you want to beat oem B&W on bmw ix for example. More than what the system costs. Unless your better means louder, which it seems to...

Higher impedance is not used to be louder, its often the opposite. Higher impedance is used when sound quality is wanted. Hence why home speakers are often 8 or 16 ohms. Only in cars are 2 ohm often seen because its easier to power with a cheap amp. Doesn't sound as good though

[RL18]

Alright He’s definitely not listening or has even read this thread ^

Lets just ignore him lol

[RL18]

Originally Posted by Matti123

Yes top hifi is same as logic 7. All music has 20hz frequencies, you can use an RTA to test that. Most bass energy is definetely not 80-160hz. Again I recommend using an RTA to actually see where most songs play bass, but in my opinion 40-60hz is where most bass is on most songs.

Google it, I thought it was 20hz too but it just turns out that I listen to a lot of music with sub-bass (hip-hop, rap, Edm) that happen to play that low. But the overwhelming majority have nothing below 30hz. And again you’re wrong, bass is above 60hz and even midbass goes as low as 60hz. You get below that you’re in sub-bass territory. And no sub-bass is not the center of “music”, bass is and it’s above 60hz. And I have an rta, you seem to have missed where I said I have a dsp and all the correct equipment to tune a system, all I’m missing I an REW software.
Yes finally you are catching on. Watts doesn't make much of a difference to anything, its the processing. Superior processing makes individual audio so much better than logic 7. Dirac is wonderful.
I’ve said this from the start, check early on in the thread and I talk about how important a proper dsp is. And it’s not the only important thing it a balance of everything together.

What do you mean with "it just sounds better, its not louder"? Isn't that the whole point to sound better lol. Nobody cares which is louder but spec sheet still says individual audio is 2db louder. I think you are misunderstanding being louder to being good. Loud doesn't mean good.

Exactly what I said, it sounds clearer, more refined, you get any “nulls” addressed. It’s not “louder” it sounds better. To be louder is harder than you think. 2db louder is not loud. 3db louder is what humans (thats us) perceive as louder. For something to be twice as loud You need 10db. 10db increase takes more than 3x the power or a lot more speaker, or both.
I am not disappointed with match up7bmw, its an amazing amp. Nothing better for the same price. Until now I have wanted to use oem B&W speakers because that actually raises the value of the car but that is also holding the system back little bit. I haven't measured my B&W subwoofers impedance yet but I think they are 4ohm which means they are getting 80W rms. They are not in a sealed enclosure, e60 already has vented enclosures. But e60 enclosures are smaller and its not as rigid overall since car weighs much less than new bmws. A lot of energy is lost to vibration. Hence why their peak is 50hz on my system. Drops over 10db till 20hz. I wouldn't use the B&W as midbass, they don't sound good doing so because of their xmax being around 10mm and fs of around 40hz. I have mine low passed around 150hz because higher [...]

If you’ve been following along in this thread, which I guess you aren’t, the B&W underseats are 8ohm woofers. That’s nominal. So you’re sending them 40w each. You must know though that a speakers impedance changes constantly, some factors could be an open window, enclosure type and size, and it’ll change depending on the frequency it’s playing. Ive gone over all these things already in this thread. And great you have a vented enclosure you are already getting more out of them then we are since our enclosures are sealed. And Idk where you got the xmax numbers but I DOUBT its 10mm. A morel elate carbon mw9 doesn’t even have 10mm of xmax and it a MUCH better speaker for the job. And their Fs is exactly 46hz. Idk where you’re getting all this info but we already know just about everything there is to know about the b&w speakers. I’m still doing some testing with porting the underseats, and creating custom crossovers for the b&w midranges and morel m120n tweeters, but other than that we know just about everything we need to know.

[RL18]

You need to spend a lot of money if you want to beat oem B&W on bmw ix for example. More than what the system costs. Unless your better means louder, which it seems to...

Higher impedance is not used to be louder, its often the opposite. Higher impedance is used when sound quality is wanted. Hence why home speakers are often 8 or 16 ohms. Only in cars are 2 ohm often seen because its easier to power with a cheap amp. Doesn't sound as good though

To address this ^

No you don’t, the IX system is what a 900w rms system? And it gets all it sub-bass from 2 bass shakers in the front seats. In what world are bass shakers better than a Subwoofer? On a budget maybe. For $3,400, knowing what I know now, I could probably figure out a better system that matches the pricing and I could even add Dirac live!

Higher impedance speakers, most of the time, are more sensitive than that lower impedance speakers. In this case bmw did 8ohm speakers for all the b&w speakers because it allowed them to be louder without needing to add a lot of power to get louder, because the speakers are more sensitive. Yes higher impedance translates to better quality audio too, most of the time, but 4ohm speakers nowadays sound damn good and some can be better or it’s hardly distinguishable unless you have an ear for it.

[SlowX6M]

This isn't mean to be an audiophile jihad thread. I originally posted this because I discovered a direct and easy swap to drastically improve sound quality, whether its L7, Individual, or just premium.

Sure there are always way to take it a notch higher, which many did, but for the most part the B&W swap is about $2k in parts and a few hours of relatively painless wrenching.

[argento]

RL18 I was only able to get one of the capacitances, NedLabs 160Vdc, 2033A/2628 (4.70uF). It's the bigger cap of the two, on the bottom. Without the other values, I don't think this will help you but does give you some idea of the layout. I do have the p/n for the other cap NedLabs 160Vdc, 2032A/2628 (X.X0uF). I may try to remove some panels soon and find the other uF.

These XO's were about $135/ea. and came with 30" pure silver hookup wire in 18awg and very long lead times b/c he's so busy. He has the design for the E70, it's just the fab time to make them is LONG.



FWIW, the S752 crossovers (diplexers) used 8.2uF to the Tweeter, and 6.8uF to the midrange. FRONT DOORS ONLY, S752A ONLY. Very different (and simpler?) from the custom XO above. I think I posted this earlier in this thread, but here it is again below. I bought a used diplexer off ebay and dissected it. That's how I found out the caps were degrading over time, they measured off than the cap label listed.



The higher impedance discussion wrt to quality is relevant. I didn't address this directly in my DIY, but I did post the impedances. Note that the B&W subwoofers weren't labeled with impedance like the S752A subs, so I measured them with a multimeter and that's what's noted. As RL18 discusses, the B&W total impedance is higher in the doors and d-pillars than the S752A system. The center dash is a wash on impedance almost the same.



Lastly, SlowX6M is on target with $2k for the tweeters and mids. A good deal (at this time) on B&W subs was $500/pr used. Then $945 for the custom crossovers. Put me over $3k after all the consumables. Where I really miss the sophistication of an aftermarket system is tuning and being able to turn off each speaker separately. I'm going to get an AudioControl SA-4100i and see what I can do...but I'm really happy with the out of the box sound...I can hear instruments I didn't notice before and the clarity is wonderful. As I just said I do need to tune the midrange and roll off the highs...for my taste.

[SlowX6M]

Ton of good information in this thread for anyone attempting any type of audio upgrade. Probably the most comprehensive audio thread on the entire site.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

If you’ve been following along in this thread, which I guess you aren’t, the B&W underseats are 8ohm woofers. That’s nominal. So you’re sending them 40w each. You must know though that a speakers impedance changes constantly, some factors could be an open window, enclosure type and size, and it’ll change depending on the frequency it’s playing. Ive gone over all these things already in this thread. And great you have a vented enclosure you are already getting more out of them then we are since our enclosures are sealed. And Idk where you got the xmax numbers but I DOUBT its 10mm. A morel elate carbon mw9 doesn’t even have 10mm of xmax and it a MUCH better speaker for the job. And their Fs is exactly 46hz. Idk where you’re getting all this info but we already know just about everything there is to know about the b&w speakers. I’m still doing some testing with porting the underseats, and creating custom crossovers for the b&w midranges and morel m120n tweeters, but other than that we know just about everything we need to know.

I have read the whole thread and there is not much useful info. For example somebody here posted RTA measurements of the B&W speakers but they looked very inaccurate. Unless they were free-air which would explain the weird results. Also the impedances vary between models, not all have 8ohm woofers, some have 4ohm.
Whos enclosure is sealed? I don't think any bmw stock enclosure is sealed. Xmax of B&O and B&W subwoofers is around 10mm. Harman kardon 7mm. Hifi 6mm. Morel elate carbon mw9 is much worse in same job as bmw woofer is, but thats because its meant to be a midbass used in the kicks with bigger enclosure. You don't know about everything, nobody has measured t/s parameters for any bmw woofers expect hifi. Maybe some day I will.

About your other reply, you can't beat Bmw ix B&W. Ix is a 1615W assuming peak system. But again watts doesn't matter like you think they do. Its not traditional Bmw layout, it uses 4 of the B&W woofers in different enclosures. Two of them has bigger enclosures for getting the response properly down to 20hz. Dirac optimized system on a heavy sound proofed car. Its amazing you should try it.

What??? 8ohm requires a stronger amp to be able to run at same watts as 4ohm. It is absolutely not the easy way to make power, but it is the better way in SQ regard. Also lower ohm speakers are more sensitive. I think you have impedance confused wrong way around.

[RL18]

Originally Posted by Matti123

I have read the whole thread and there is not much useful info. For example somebody here posted RTA measurements of the B&W speakers but they looked very inaccurate. Unless they were free-air which would explain the weird results. Also the impedances vary between models, not all have 8ohm woofers, some have 4ohm.
Show me a 4ohm b&w underseat woofer. They were tested in free air(in the e70 enclosure) and “sealed”. I used an smd im-sg+ and played pink noise through them, then measured it a set/fixed distance from the woofer with an rta microphone. It’s not meant to show response like the manufacturer does but it gives an idea of the response.
Whos enclosure is sealed? I don't think any bmw stock enclosure is sealed. Xmax of B&O and B&W subwoofers is around 10mm. Harman kardon 7mm. Hifi 6mm. Morel elate carbon mw9 is much worse in same job as bmw woofer is, but thats because its meant to be a midbass used in the kicks with bigger enclosure. You don't know about everything, nobody has measured t/s parameters for any bmw woofers expect hifi. Maybe some day I will.

The e70 underseat enclosure is sealed. There is no port anywhere in the cabin. The measurements I got outside the vehicle with the enclosure “sealed” are the same measurements I got install in the x5. I understand why you think they’re ported, but the opening below is not a port, if anything it acts like a leaky sealed enclosure.
Show me they have 10mm xmax. Show me that they even have 5mm xmax. That’s just not true. For comparison the mw9 is +- 4.25mm. The B&W underseat is primarily a bass/midbass speaker that happens to play pretty low. In the b&w system it likely crosses with the 4” midrange around 500hz, maybe higher, but most likely not lower. You really think they play a 4” midrange below 200hz? And I’ve measure the t/s parameters. That’s why I know the fs and nominal impedance.I just don’t have the xmax because I can’t with the fixed grill on the woofer or find the sensitivity because you need certain equipment to do that. And a morel mw9 is a WAY better woofer doing the same job as the b&w woofer, idk how you can even say that lol. They’re actually similar in some ways. The B&W woofer is quite possibly the best option given the space it’s installed, but it’s a shallow mount woofer.
About your other reply, you can't beat Bmw ix B&W. Ix is a 1615W assuming peak system. But again watts doesn't matter like you think they do. Its not traditional Bmw layout, it uses 4 of the B&W woofers in different enclosures. Two of them has bigger enclosures for getting the response properly down to 20hz. Dirac optimized system on a heavy sound proofed car. Its amazing you should try it.
Maybe for a factory audio system. The IX B&W system doesn’t have 4 b&w woofers. It has two under the back seats and two bass shakers under each seat in the front. 1,615w is peak, not rms. No audio system operates at peak except for maybe an instance. My system is about 3,500w peak, but I dont talk about that because peak numbers don’t matter. And my system is heavily sound proofed lol. I have an actual subwoofer, why wouldn’t I. Again I’m not putting down any of the factory premium systems, they are all great but no matter what you think an aftermarket system can do even better.

What??? 8ohm requires a stronger amp to be able to run at same watts as 4ohm. It is absolutely not the easy way to make power, but it is the better way in SQ regard. Also lower ohm speakers are more sensitive. I think you have impedance confused wrong way around.
I’m not sure where you’re getting your info from, but 8ohm speakers are mostly MORE sensitive to power than 4ohm speakers. When you see a db rating at 2.83v (which most car audio uses) it’s completely different than it’s db rating at 1w @ 1 meter. Alot of times a higher impedance speaker will use LESS power to be louder db wise than a lower impedance speaker. If you need me to I can show you the math behind it, but it’s easily findable if you search it on the internet.

Aside from all of this we need to stop derailing this thread. There are still things to be learn and this is purely a thread that talks about how to go about performing the speaker swap to get a decent upgrade without going custom. We have a lot of info on these speakers already. Really the only important things to me was the fs of each speaker. If you want the t/s parameters I can post them. But I don’t see how it’ll how it’ll help. If you’d like to discuss/argue about whatever it is you are with the factory systems then I suggest you make your own thread.

[RL18]

argento

No worries!

Mine will likely be drastically different as I’m most likely aiming for a lower crossover point to prevent beaming on the 4” midrange, I’m also using a l-pad attenuator on my tweeter to allow me to level match easier rather than use a resistor, and the mt120n tweeter i’m using is a bit different then the b&w tweeter (can play a bit lower in the frequency range and is a silk dome tweeter). I have yet to continue that project though because I’m waiting to buy some measurement equipment and set up an environment to be able to better understand the changes I’m making.

Get some data on the Dba at max volume and peak spl when you get that audiocontrol rta too! I’m interested to see how it compares to my system. My guess is we’ll be equal, possibly even you have the edge for the door speakers output. Btw for the rta microphone tuning you can go on SMD (steve meade design) and get a cd for their DD-1 that has a pink noise track you can use it to get a base tune. Then use your music to fine tune further to your liking.

$135 each is a large chunk of money though, jeez. I think that I’d probably have about that in it to make 6 crossovers maybe even less. I’m also going to 3d print a casing for mine and use an epoxy to seal the crossover from the elements. Maybe If we can get the specs I can make them up for us cheaper and get them weatherproof! Also on the b&w woofers I remember someone saying you can find them much cheaper on Aliexpress and i did buy a set and can confirm that they tested out to be the same as the originals I got off ebay.

[Matti123]

Originally Posted by RL18

Aside from all of this we need to stop derailing this thread. There are still things to be learn and this is purely a thread that talks about how to go about performing the speaker swap to get a decent upgrade without going custom. We have a lot of info on these speakers already. Really the only important things to me was the fs of each speaker. If you want the t/s parameters I can post them. But I don’t see how it’ll how it’ll help. If you’d like to discuss/argue about whatever it is you are with the factory systems then I suggest you make your own thread.

Just watched a youtube video and the e70 looks to be very close to infinite baffle but I think its still just internally coupled subwoofer system just like every other bmw.
5mm xmax? What?? The bad hifi/us base audio woofers have 6mm xmax, the parameters are published on this forum. I will make a video of 10mm xmax at some point. The mw9 has only 4.5mm xmax because its made for a whole different purpose. Many 4 inch midranges have same xmax lol. "Bass speaker that happens to play low"...lol you realize how ridiculous that sounds? You think the crossover between mid and underseats is around 500hz? You realize how bad that would sound when directional sounds are coming beneath your butt? Actual fact from individual audio system is that the low pass for underseats is around 225hz and high pass for mids around 200hz. This can also be found from the forum.
The ix b&w system indeed does have four woofers and two 4D "bass shakers". Aftermarket systems can be better with custom pods of course but requires an actual professional, I am certain you could not do it.

Share all the t/s parameters you have measured if you have.