Bob Lutz chimes in on the Automotive Enthusiasts vs. BMW debate

[Mark]

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Bob Lutz chimes in on the Automotive Enthusiasts vs. BMW debate

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In my opinion, Bob Lutz is pretty much as close to a god as we have in the car enthusiast world

For us BMW people, don't forget that Mr Lutz was on the BMW Board around the time of the 3-Series and development of BMW M! He also has been reported to be the one to bring the "Ultimate Driving Machine" tag to BMW. He authored the best seller "Car Guys vs. Bean Counters". Hes done a whole host of amazing things for other brands as well, but who cares about that.

In a short answer to an enthusiast question, over at Road and Track, Mr Lutz argues that BMWs transformation to a more 'mainstream' brand might hurt us a little bit, but is overall a great move for the brand's bottom line.

Dear Bob,

Do you think BMW is going the way of the bean counters nowadays with the introduction [not in the U.S.] of the front-wheel-drive 2-series and soon-to-be-released 1-series?–Rafael Akopyan Havana, Cuba

Answer:
BMW has ceased to be a company designing responsive, sporting cars for enthusiasts. It has gone mainstream, which, from a shareholder's perspective, has been a good move. The brand is greatly respected, and BMW earned that respect. Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers. Taut ride, superb handling, sharp steering, and symphonic-quality engine sound have mostly fallen by the wayside; today's BMW customer neither notices nor cares. Front-wheel drive, minivans, small pickups—all toxic to the original owner base—are possible and will/would sell just fine.

[OutlawX3M]

Car guys vs Bean Counters is a must read IMO.

And you have to love a guy that will drop a 'Vette V8' into a Fisker body.
http://jalopnik.com/henrik-fisker-an...the-1751935261

[gthal]

BMW is a company in business to earn profit like any other. They have a duty to their shareholders to do just that. If the market will buy it, they will build it and they will build it how the mass market wants it. Small groups of enthusiasts won't impact that, unfortunately.

However, I do believe BMW M will continue to build great cars for the niche market. The M2 is a great, current, example

[tetsuo111]

Lutz is one of the more respected and credible auto execs around. His accomplishments make him credible in the industry, and he is definitely a car guy, not a bean counter.

His reply succinctly captures the sentiment of driving enthusiasts with respect to modern BMWs. BMW leadership today aspires to build the brand into a global force. This means marketing and design to the mass consumer. The brand strategy reminds me of GM when the bean counters were in charge in the bad old 70s and 80s.

Ironically, GM learned, is now led by a car lady (and guys), and builds better enthusiast cars than BMW.

[SYT_Shadow]

BMW has to make a profit, however, in the age of electronic suspension, steering, etc, I find it hard to accept they do not have a 'BMW mode' where the car more or less behaves as it should

They continue to make enthusiast cars in their M division and fortunately I can afford those, so I'll just keep buying Ms. The M5/6 are the best of their segment and the M3/4 is the most track/race ready of its segment as well, so they have not completely lost their way

They are receiving really bad press and it's only a matter of time before the BMW brand loses some of its status. If everyone else is going after the enthusiast in their regular models it seems like a mistake that BMW is going in the opposite direction

[desertfox73]

I believe much of BMWs challenge, and much of the reason they get knocked in the press and enthusiast forums, is because their evolution as a brand has run counter to many other companies. BMW started with driver-focused automobiles and then migrated towards every market segment...while many others started with a wide swath of cars and a populist philosophy to capture market share and then, when they grew a pair, decided to launch a couple driver-focused cars.

Many other companies that started with enthusiasts in mind kept moving in the direction towards cars that are out of reach for many, if not most, drivers.

Each person will have their own opinion if this is a good or bad thing. But the smart move seems to be to buy an M car and some BMW stock and enjoy both rides. Best of both worlds.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by gthal

BMW is a company in business to earn profit like any other. They have a duty to their shareholders to do just that. If the market will buy it, they will build it and they will build it how the mass market wants it. Small groups of enthusiasts won't impact that, unfortunately.

^This

[MachinesWithSouls]

The last great car they built was the e9x M3.

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by gthal

BMW is a company in business to earn profit like any other. They have a duty to their shareholders to do just that. If the market will buy it, they will build it and they will build it how the mass market wants it. Small groups of enthusiasts won't impact that, unfortunately.

However, I do believe BMW M will continue to build great cars for the niche market. The M2 is a great, current, example

Totally true.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by gthal

BMW is a company in business to earn profit like any other. They have a duty to their shareholders to do just that. If the market will buy it, they will build it and they will build it how the mass market wants it. Small groups of enthusiasts won't impact that, unfortunately.

However, I do believe BMW M will continue to build great cars for the niche market. The M2 is a great, current, example

What an amazing list of cars you have owned in the past 5 years. Ladies and gentlemen, here is a car guy!

2016 M2 | Long Beach Blue | 6MT - current
2015 M4 | Austin Yellow | DCT
2014 Corvette Stingray | Z51 | Torch Red | 7MT
2012 MB C63 Coupe | Performance package | Obsidian Black
2011 E92 M3 | Jerez Black | Fox Red | DCT | Competition Package

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

The last great car they built was the e9x M3.

It's all a matter of personal taste. I owned a 2009 E90 M3 and felt that it had the wrong engine. I suggest the current M2 is a great enthusiasts car.

[MachinesWithSouls]

Originally Posted by tuco44

It's all a matter of personal taste. I owned a 2009 E90 M3 and felt that it had the wrong engine. I suggest the current M2 is a great enthusiasts car.

I think you'd be alone on that island.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by Outlaw M3

Car guys vs Bean Counters is a must read IMO.

This. WELL worth the time and few bucks to buy the Kindle edition and read it on whatever device you find most convenient. I loved it start to finish. So many great stories.

[Audio Fan]

Originally Posted by gthal

BMW is a company in business to earn profit like any other. They have a duty to their shareholders to do just that. If the market will buy it, they will build it and they will build it how the mass market wants it. Small groups of enthusiasts won't impact that, unfortunately.

However, I do believe BMW M will continue to build great cars for the niche market. The M2 is a great, current, example

Great point. I'll chime in in support. BMW still makes great cars for enthusiasts. They also make cars for the masses that like a nice, well built, well engineered cars, but don't like the cars for enthusiasts. This is a wonderful thing. In short, the masses are subsidizing BMWs efforts for enthusiasts, and we benefit not only on price, but also great built quality and engineering throughout.

When you can get an M2 for a touch over 50k and an M3 under 70k, you should be thankful someone over in Munich is still thinking about you and quit worrying about the fact that they need to make money and built "normal" cars to do it. Have you seen how much you have to pay for a Porsche to get comparable performance?

[evanevery]

Increasing Sales brings in more money, but...

BMW built its image by designing high performance automobiles for car enthusiasts. Widening the design portfolio, while bringing in more sales, will also ultimately dilute the image of a sharp handling sports car as more compromises are made to luxury and/or the mass market in general.

If the brand finds this to be a huge sales success, enthusiasts lose because performance models become less important/available/focused. If the brand find this to be a huge failure, the brand may disappear altogether, if the enthusiasts change allegiances to a more focused brand.

Radio Shack used to be a very focused store. If you were into electronics, you could find almost any individual component there (transistors, capacitors, resistors, switches, etc). They also had one of the first personal computers (TRS-80). Their sales were driven by a niche market of enthusiasts. Then they diluted their brand in a hope to get more mass market share. Eventually, all you could buy at Radio Shack was Cell Phones, MP3 players, and cheap radio control cars. I expect their sales went up as they embraced the mass market, but they lost their identity, and the enthusiast customers went elsewhere (SparkFun, etc). Now they were competing in a much larger market, with many more players, and just couldn't compete on that level. So they also lost their mass market customers as well. Radio Shack ultimately failed as they lost focus and diluted their brand in hopes to appeal to a larger market, and easily lost to the Best Buy's of the world.

"New Coke" anyone?

I've said it before, but: "If you keep adding water to the Kool Aide, pretty soon all you got is water"

[stefan]

Originally Posted by SoManyBlueCars

The last great car they built was the e9x M3.

Having owned one, as well as many others, I really feel like the last "great" car in terms of soul, German-ness, M principles, was the E39 M5. The used market seems to agree with me.

Bob Lutz is right and I'm glad someone with authority has finally pointed that BMW M is slowly drifting away from being an enthusiast brand. They now simply make "good" competent cars that get reasonable fuel efficiency. If that is what you're all about, then you'll love everything they produce. In general, they know it sells and they have the ///Marketing department and journalists in tow.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by evanevery

Increasing Sales brings in more money, but...

BMW built its image by designing high performance automobiles for car enthusiasts. Widening the design portfolio, while bringing in more sales, will also ultimately dilute the image of a sharp handling sports car as more compromises are made to luxury and/or the mass market in general.

If the brand finds this to be a huge sales success, enthusiasts lose because performance models become less important/available/focused. If the brand find this to be a huge failure, the brand may disappear altogether, if the enthusiasts change allegiances to a more focused brand.

Radio Shack used to be a very focused store. If you were into electronics, you could find almost any individual component there (transistors, capacitors, resistors, switches, etc). They also had one of the first personal computers (TRS-80). Their sales were driven by a niche market of enthusiasts. Then they diluted their brand in a hope to get more mass market share. Eventually, all you could buy at Radio Shack was Cell Phones, MP3 players, and cheap radio control cars. I expect their sales went up as they embraced the mass market, but they lost their identity, and the enthusiast customers went elsewhere (SparkFun, etc). Now they were competing in a much larger market, with many more players, and just couldn't compete on that level. So they also lost their mass market customers as well. Radio Shack ultimately failed as they lost focus and diluted their brand in hopes to appeal to a larger market, and easily lost to the Best Buy's of the world.

"New Coke" anyone?

I've said it before, but: "If you keep adding water to the Kool Aide, pretty soon all you got is water"

I agree, generally, but I don't think the mass luxury market car buyer sees it this way any longer. They aren't buying for driving feel and performance. They are buying for gadgets, badge status and prestige, and comfort. BMW is simply looking more and more like Mercedes, Lexus, etc. They will continue to have a performance oriented focus for some cars (M, like Mercedes AMG, Lexus' F, etc) but the vast majority of their cars will move to what the market wants.

We forget, here, sometimes that we are a SMALL part of the market. My wife likes the idea of driving a "BMW" but just really wants a nice SUV. So, that's what BMW will build her She represents the vast majority of buyers today IMO.

[PennSt8]

Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers.

If you removed BMWs name and inserted Audi or Mercedes-Benz, the same thing holds true.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by PennSt8

If you removed BMWs name and inserted Audi or Mercedes-Benz, the same thing holds true.

Agreed... Audi, Infiniti, Lexus, MB... change the name/badge and its the same story.

Even Porsche is going that way. Many people buying a 911 these days are buying it for the status and not the performance... hence why sedans and SUV's are now really driving the sales of Porsche.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by PennSt8

If you removed BMWs name and inserted Audi or Mercedes-Benz, the same thing holds true.

Or virtually any popular luxury model.

[anotheran]

Most BMW buyers today pay a monthly lease and have no idea why they bought the brand, other than that it enjoys instant recognition and respect among the owner's peers

I very agree with this. Sometimes I wonder why my wife bought a BMW (wondering whether it was I who steered her this direction) as she was cross shopping IS250, TLX, A4, and C Class. And what eliminated the other choices wasn't based on driving dynamics at all.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

And yes mainstream is the word. In going from an E46 ZHP to a 435 GC is night and day. I own both and drive both. The 435 is UUUGe and is NOT for carving up side roads and mountain passes- but it is a great highway cruiser for sure- and with the front splitter does add some good traction in the 80-100 MPH Range (not diving in that range much but...) but so are MANY other cars out now who all share the same robotic assembly plants and have pilfered top designers away from the German companies etc...
But where BMW MUST change is the Navigation Infotainment system- the roller ball concept is weak and takes to many steps. The nav system doesn't recognize voice commands for Sh*t. I like the split screen for traffic alerts but its not near as good as my Iphone...
My daughters Ram pickup with the 8" touchscreen option blows the BMW away. And for 65k why did I get such an AVERAGE sound system- the Kia Rios (and many others in the 18-30k range) are just so much better. BMW gets a lot for that logo and that is not a bad thing. The cars for the most part are great- but next time around- how I interact with it the car will be as important as the car itself.