Automotive Enthusiasts vs. BMW

[Arcades]

er... V6?

You mean Straight 6 or V8?... BMW hardly makes any V6.

If you are reading "reviews" I will tell you to take them with a grain of salt. Car reviewers especially are all biased. Everyone one of them are biased in one way or another. Motor Trend, The Smoking Tire, Car and Driver all biased. (ESPECIALLY Matt Farah)

Never take those seriously. Test drive the car and decide for yourself. Don't let "experts" change your opinion.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Then we were having EPS in some of the E9x models, hardly got a mention. It was only when the F3x models came along and the rollout to all models that the steering got the bashing.

Many UK users applauded BMW for softening the F3x suspensions as well. Ride quality is coming back in fashion, after the pseudo sport feel we've been fed as the way to drive.

No E9x product sold in the USA ever had EPS; Car and Driver had to put an E90 and F30 on a Kinematics and Compliance machine to figure out what the heck happened to the steering and driving dynamics of the F30: http://blog.caranddriver.com/a-tale-...-so-different/

On the other subject, the market is forecasting trouble in BMW's future given that it has lost almost 50% of its value in the past 16 months. The precipitous breakdown of their stock well preceded the finally showing up declining sales statistics as it broke hard initially off it's all time high and then never looked back.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

Ive had the pleasure of driving the last several iterations of the 3-Series, and currently own a 335i (ordering M3 in November).

If you look back in time through all of your old car magazines (I know you still have them), it's amazing how the automotive enthusiasts, specifically those writing Motor Trend, C&D, R&T, etc. have almost flipped on BMW...

I really don't think there are many old(time) automotive journalist that are still around that remember those old BMW models of yesterday-year. I bet most of the staff is under thirty-something. Plus BMW doesn't like to compare their new cars with the older models. They just invite the press to some really nice locations and wine and dine people.

I remember when I went on the 435i press launch in Portugal... the journalist that I was sharing my press car with... the only thing he wanted to try out was Launch Control(and he couldn't figure THAT out! lol) and he was crazy curious about BMW"s new "Eco Plus" mode!! I was like WTF really? That's all your into with this new 4er ? Jezz... these new guys.

I was also disappointed that BMW did not have other "lower models" of the 4er on hand, for us to drive/test. I at least expected maybe a 420d and a 428i to test. Nope. Only fully(nicely) loaded 435i's... and ALL in the same silver color with red coral interior. How boring. I was really disappointed in the event. The track driving and street driving was really nice. And the hotel and food were awesome. But I was expecting more "car stuff" from a company that it's middle name is "motor". I think the car world has changed and so too the people that buy BMW's.

There are still the loyal BMW enthusiasts. But BMW keeps diluting the brand - I think. They need more cars like the fun playful M2. And maybe a few more basic entry level fun cars too(non M)ones.

Dackel

[Bbb34]

They diluted the brand quite a bit no doubt, and this upsets the enthusiasts, but it's hard to argue the effect this has on their bottom line, hard to blame them for that.

I for one think they still have lots of cars that are very good and slightly ahead of competition. BMW cars are competitive in each segment, and they are still "desirable" brand. However it has never been more difficult to navigate all the options available and get the most out of each model.

The other thing I find funny is how many (Not calling out anyone in this particular thread) are complaining about BMW loosing it's way, all while buying xDrive cars with automatic transmissions.

[wdb]

Yes BMW is trying to change with the times. That's the good news.

Yes BMW seems to have forgotten how to build a driver's car at its heart, IOW a lineup where even the one with the vinyl interior is a joy to drive. That's the bad news. Worse news is I think they don't care. They want sales numbers.

[SakhirM4]

Originally Posted by wdb

Yes BMW is trying to change with the times. That's the good news.

Yes BMW seems to have forgotten how to build a driver's car at its heart, IOW a lineup where even the one with the vinyl interior is a joy to drive. That's the bad news. Worse news is I think they don't care. They want sales numbers.

I respectfully disagree. I have owned 18 BMWs, starting with a 1970 2002. My M4 is by far the best BMW that I have owned and I do not believe they have forgotten anything.

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I respectfully disagree. I have owned 18 BMWs, starting with a 1970 2002. My M4 is by far the best BMW that I have owned and I do not believe they have forgotten anything.

And I will agree with you, also having owned 18 other BMWs. My 340i is probably the best one I have had (but have only had it 3 weeks).

[F22_Raptor]

Didn't a major car magazine just hail the 340i as the "benchmark" luxury sedan yet again?

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by SakhirM4

I respectfully disagree. I have owned 18 BMWs, starting with a 1970 2002. My M4 is by far the best BMW that I have owned and I do not believe they have forgotten anything.

Similar feelings.

I don't have any hankering to go back to an E28 528i (fantastic BMW in its time) or even my E39 540i. No, I'm completely happy to have my F11 5-series, the best I've owned. Just as many smiles today, as any time in the past at the helm of a BMW.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by CSBM5

No E9x product sold in the USA ever had EPS; Car and Driver had to put an E90 and F30 on a Kinematics and Compliance machine to figure out what the heck happened to the steering and driving dynamics of the F30: http://blog.caranddriver.com/a-tale-...-so-different/

What surprised me after the F30 launch and all the focus on EPS, we had EPS here in Europe in some E9x models and it hardly raised any comment, was as if it wasn't even on the radar. The only references I recall were by some who appreciated BMW had "lightened the steering", the 'heavy' steering being a negative aspect of driving a BMW to many users.

Even the UK motoring journos didn't have the same negativity to EPS as we have seen in the US, or on the US forums.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Bbb34

The other thing I find funny is how many (Not calling out anyone in this particular thread) are complaining about BMW loosing it's way, all while buying xDrive cars with automatic transmissions.

Same over here in the UK, plus add in diesel!

When you read discussions in the UK comparing a BMW 3-series with Jaguar's XE and comments focus on the best infotainment system, (even if the XE is rated to have the best driving dynamics), add in the decision making on the best lease costs, I guess we get a glimpse into the real BMW marketplace.

Even the M2 vs. M3/4 debates (by enthusiasts) often focus on lease costs and value for money. Never mind which is the best driver's car.

I do believe BMW know their market better than many enthusiasts do.

[CSBM5]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

What surprised me after the F30 launch and all the focus on EPS, we had EPS here in Europe in some E9x models and it hardly raised any comment, was as if it wasn't even on the radar. The only references I recall were by some who appreciated BMW had "lightened the steering", the 'heavy' steering being a negative aspect of driving a BMW to many users.

Even the UK motoring journos didn't have the same negativity to EPS as we have seen in the US, or on the US forums.

The issue many here have had is multi-faceted, and admittedly only applies to people who are really keyed into driving and/or have lots of demands in that regard. The primary issue with the F30 was, as highlighted in that article link, a dramatic decrease in steering wheel torque input required versus lateral loading of tires. The curve is so flat that the traditional build up of cornering loads provides very little feedback to the driver compared to BMW HPS systems.

The second issue is feedback approaching, at and over the limits of adhesion of the front tires. This continues to be a weak spot even with the F8x and F87 as many have noted. Hopefully this is not an issue for *anyone* on a public road!

However, on track or autocross, you'll find the EPS system provides poor tactical feel (compared to HPS from say the E9x M3 for example) in that realm of tire performance. An example scenario: you are braking heavily from say 100mph into a 40mph corner, trailbraking strongly, rolling off brakes as you're adding steering input smoothly. At just "that point" you realize you've overcooked the entry and are going to be wide of the apex as you're dialing in steering. The car starts pushing wide (understeering), and now you need to manage steering input (taking away steering input to regain front traction) all around the limits of adhesion.

It's that whole area approaching/at/over the top of the slip angle versus tractive force curve of the tire that many enthusiasts are complaining about poor feedback in the BMW EPS systems. It's getting better and at some point they'll have it licked, but that's the issue, and it's a difficult issue to discuss since there is so much misunderstanding related to the common term "steering feedback."

Cheers,
Chuck

[Fundguy1]

The v8 was only good for the noise. No low end torque at all. That said they right or wrong bought into the PC global warming thing and went electric and failed miserably. All those research dollars spent on something that made no money and not on their bread and butter 3 series. Now the 3 is lost in the pack of other cars instead of the leader. I hope they got the message.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Fundguy1

The v8 was only good for the noise. No low end torque at all. That said they right or wrong bought into the PC global warming thing and went electric and failed miserably. All those research dollars spent on something that made no money and not on their bread and butter 3 series. Now the 3 is lost in the pack of other cars instead of the leader. I hope they got the message.

You said it better than I did. From a business standpoint they're right to go down the path of electrification; it truly is the future of mass produced automobiles. But they lost their focus on driving dynamics. Or maybe it's that they just haven't found a way to recreate those dynamics electrically. Yet.

[Fundguy1]

I agree someday will have electrics as one of the common options. But that's still a couple decades out. They didn't do to the i3 what they do to a 3. If they had maybe it would have been a contender with the new tesla. As it stands they're electric research group left for a Chinese company and the i3 is cancelled. The 100 of millions spent lost money and they're top seller is lost in obscurity vs the competition instead of a class leader. The lost love by reviewers is deserved.

[Obioban]

Modern BMW's suck to drive and suck to maintain, compared to BMW's of the past. I've purchased multiple new and used BMWs in my life, but don't see myself ever doing so again, unless they have a dramatic reverse course. Every time I drive a current one, I experience nothing but frustration. Every time I work on my wife's e9X, I immediately want to sell it because everything is such a huge pain in the nuts compared to the old cars... and it's nowhere near as bad as the current crap.

The press didn't turn on BMW-- BMW shifted what they make from "the ultimate driving machine" to "the ultimate gadget box that makes you go fast while being as disconnected from the driving experience as we can manage". Reviews changed accordingly.

This video pretty much sums up my problem with modern performance/sports cars, and the charge was led by/worst example of it is BMW:

Modern BMW's cars just suck. Shit to drive, shit to maintain, inefficient use of spacer (e.g. compare the good back seat space of the, smaller than F82, e39 M5 to the completely useless back seat of the, e38 sized, F10 M5).

I wonder if it'll ever turn on them in sales. I think for most people (soccer mom's, old people, slow drivers, who want to be seen in a BMW who make up the majority of the sales, and would never consider working on their own car), the current cars are actually better. Softer, quieter, easier. But, BMW's image was built on being "the ultimate driving machine", and, as seen by the press responses... that is clearly fading. When that reputation is lost/ground into the dirt (by turbo eps awd automatic hybrid bullshit), will it cause the people that should have never been buying the old cars to stop buying the current cars?

[Fundguy1]

Bad German. Love it. So perfect.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Obioban

Modern BMW's suck to drive and suck to maintain, compared to BMW's of the past. I've purchased multiple new and used BMWs in my life, but don't see myself ever doing so again, unless they have a dramatic reverse course. Every time I drive a current one, I experience nothing but frustration. Every time I work on my wife's e9X, I immediately want to sell it because everything is such a huge pain in the nuts compared to the old cars... and it's nowhere near as bad as the current crap.

The press didn't turn on BMW-- BMW shifted what they make from "the ultimate driving machine" to "the ultimate gadget box that makes you go fast while being as disconnected from the driving experience as we can manage". Reviews changed accordingly.

This video pretty much sums up my problem with modern performance/sports cars, and the charge was led by/worst example of it is BMW:

Modern BMW's cars just suck. Shit to drive, shit to maintain, inefficient use of spacer (e.g. compare the good back seat space of the, smaller than F82, e39 M5 to the completely useless back seat of the, e38 sized, F10 M5).

I wonder if it'll ever turn on them in sales. I think for most people (soccer mom's, old people, slow drivers, who want to be seen in a BMW who make up the majority of the sales, and would never consider working on their own car), the current cars are actually better. Softer, quieter, easier. But, BMW's image was built on being "the ultimate driving machine", and, as seen by the press responses... that is clearly fading. When that reputation is lost/ground into the dirt (by turbo eps awd automatic hybrid bullshit), will it cause the people that should have never been buying the old cars to stop buying the current cars?

Agreed, get rid of navi, bluetooth audio streaming and nonsense like power windows. Make BMW's amazing like they used to be!

I love the hilarious and severe case of rosy retrospection in this thread. It's as if 10-20 years ago, everyone who drove BMW's loved to turn their own wrench and other instances that were actually never the case. Then to make your case, you used a $200k Aston Martin as the benchmark of how BMW's should be like. Genius. Most BMW's have never been as raw as that car.

[Obioban]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

Agreed, get rid of navi, bluetooth audio streaming and nonsense like power windows. Make BMW's amazing like they used to be!

I love the hilarious and severe case of rosy retrospection in this thread. It's as if 10-20 years ago, everyone who drove BMW's loved to turn their own wrench and other instances that were actually never the case. Then to make your case, you used a $200k Aston Martin as the benchmark of how BMW's should be like. Genius. Most BMW's have never been as raw as that car.

My glasses aren't rose tinted by recollection on the slightest-- I've had 5 M3s, two M5s, and currently have an e36, e46, and e9X (pretty sure rose tinted glasses are limited to things you're no longer experiencing). I don't have an F8X because every time I've driven it I've had zero desire to own one. And I have wrenched on all of them-- in fact, I wrenched on one of my e46's at the BMW performance center, in SC, as I took delivery of the car, with the head of M in the room shaking his head at me taking apart my 2 mile on the clock car

Modern BMWs just drive like ass compared to the old ones. Throttle response has died to turbos, steering feel has died to EPS, ability to be worked on has died to disposable car design, practical use of space has died to... who knows what, NA redline bliss has died to turbo torque boredom, form follows function styling has died to gaudy tacky on over stylized japanese looking cars.

Outside of EPS, the Miata is as good of an example as the Aston. My point with the video had nothing to do with that specific car, and everything to do with him talking about what is wrong with modern performance cars in general. Also, you missed his point-- he isn't saying get rid of bluetooth/nav/whatever-- he's saying it shouldn't be the selling feature of a performance car. The driving experience should be-- which seems to have been forgotten in this era of speed/gadgets > driver involvement/experience.

[wdb]

Originally Posted by Obioban

I can't say that I ever really thought of BMWs in quite that vein. And now please excuse me, I must be off to research used V8 Vantage prices.

[HighlandPete]

We are in a different world over here in the UK.

BMW 3-series is your typical rep mobile. Ploughing up and down the motorways. BTW, it is likely to be a 2.0 litre diesel.

Driver is typically choosing a BMW as an 'all-round' vehicle, based on monthly costs, personal tax implications, BIK (company car tax, Benefit in Kind) and image.

Rather than looking to the enthusiast car magazines, is more likely governed by the fleet manager reading FleetNews for running costs and reliability rating, as to whether it is on the company car list.

Supporting the selection, is the WhatCar assessment of the model. "Makes sense for business and private buyers". "If you choose the right version and add the right options, the BMW 3 Series is still one of the best executive cars around".

Result, current 3-series is a winner.

[Bbb34]

Originally Posted by Obioban

My glasses aren't rose tinted by recollection on the slightest........ The driving experience should be-- which seems to have been forgotten in this era of speed/gadgets > driver involvement/experience.

I agree with lots of what you're saying except for the functional space comment. The thing is, 10% or less of licensed drivers couldn't care less about driver's experience. Makes sense then that as a large car manufacturer, you goal just cannot be to please 10% of the potential market out there. There are still cars in BMW lineup that will make some of those 10% happy.

Those of you who said would move away from BMW as a brand, if you stop comparing old to current models, but instead look at all brands, current models only. What brand out there appeals to you over BMW right now? Which brand do you think is significantly better ?

As I said, I feel that lots of your comments are valid in terms of driver's involvement, but I think that's just the way the whole industry is moving, not just BMW.