Automotive Enthusiasts vs. BMW

[BMW_2014]

Ive had the pleasure of driving the last several iterations of the 3-Series, and currently own a 335i (ordering M3 in November).

If you look back in time through all of your old car magazines (I know you still have them), it's amazing how the automotive enthusiasts, specifically those writing Motor Trend, C&D, R&T, etc. have almost flipped on BMW.

In the past, it was literally nothing but praise, "BMW is leaps and bounds ahead..." stuff like that. Now, everyone is pissed at the fake sound in the cockpit, the "crappy" 6-Spd manual, the turbo V6 vs. the Naturally Aspirated V8, the weight, the handling, the looks, etc...

I'm not saying that there isn't a big different between BMWs of old and now, because there is. But I am saying that times have changed... gone are the days you can spend $75K on a sports car and not have it come with certain features. Granted you can buy other cars for much more $$ that come with less, but BMWs I feel have always been about being all around cars.

In addition, there are the realities of Global Warming and Fossil Fuels... in the USA alone, Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) standards will require passenger cars to average 60 mpg by 2025... you can't do that with a Naturally Aspirated V8.

Steering feel is another thing. YES, the electric steering isn't as good as the old hydraulic... but it is the way of the future. It allows for changing feeling based on driving conditions, varying steering turns lock-to-lock, auto park, etc... Over time, it will develop into a mature technology similar to the old hydraulic. If you remember, back in the day, they said the same thing about switching to power steering...

IDK, maybe it's me, but I think it's about time for people to start giving BMW a break for not being the same exact cars they made in the 1980s-1990s...

Thoughts?????

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

...

In the past, it was literally nothing but praise, "BMW is leaps and bounds ahead..." stuff like that. Now, everyone is pissed at the fake sound in the cockpit, the "crappy" 6-Spd manual, the turbo V6 vs. the Naturally Aspirated V8, the weight, the handling, the looks, etc...

...

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

IDK, maybe it's me

Yup, it's you. BMW created a market (Cool!) and now it has a lot of competition (doh!) so naturally people are going to compare against alternatives ... and on various aspects BMW comes up lacking. For others, it doesn't. Each person has to decide for themselves on each vehicle.

Unless your last name is Quandt, I'm not sure why you'd care.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

...IDK, maybe it's me, but I think it's about time for people to start giving BMW a break for not being the same exact cars they made in the 1980s-1990s...

Thoughts?????

Understand where you are coming from, similar thinking on many points.

I personally don't want BMW to be producing the same cars as the past. We've moved on for a multitude of reasons. Perhaps more so over here in Europe. Emission legislation has had a massive impact on many facets of the BMW brand, far more than the individual model CO2 figures.

For example, where would BMW be without diesel engines? Over here in the UK (Europe) BMW would be going nowhere without diesel sales. And mostly small diesel engines at that. We live with it, but many cried "sacrilege" using diesel, when BMW was all about the I6 petrol (gas) engines, as heart of the brand.

My introduction to BMW was back in the early 1970's with my father's first BMW, a New Class 2000 sedan. With a lot of BMW history in between, I'm currently in an F11 535i wagon and it's the best BMW I've owned.

I'm minded like many other folks that the E39 (owned a 540i wagon) was probably the pinnacle of BMW models for a multitude of reasons, and didn't think any BMW would surpass the feeling of owning and driving the E39. Of course the later cars are different, but so are the times, requirements, technology and ways to achieve the required goals.

Other manufacturers have upped their game, (a good thing) but makes it harder for BMW to stand out. Plus customer demands are now not the same as a few years back, more users these days are not so much enthusiasts, but want a decent but comfortable drive, presented as a complete package. BMW are filling the need, which of course sells cars, satisfies the bottom line.

I personally think we are spoiled for choice these days, perhaps that is part of the problem for some looking at the BMW brand. Cars can be very specification sensitive and the option selection is complex, we do need to get it right for optimum driving satisfaction. Get it wrong and there can be disappointment in the brand.

[dragonsi]

BMW can make up for it by making the next M3 a twin turbo V8.

[insanecoder]

Well they have more offerings and at the top end of the offerings I would take those over the older models of yore
nostalgia has its limits

[T1M]

The new M3 ZCP kit had nice interior finish quality, but the non zcp is lacking vs Audi, Mercedes c class etc. BMW have always had minimalist interior design, but what they do include needs to be stepped up a notch. Audis switchgear is stellar in feel and sound, the tactility of the knobs/buttons is all designed in their sound lab. Cup holders nicely integrated into the centre console vs BMW's stick on solutions or flip out plasticky things, yeah, they've got some work to do.

They have always focused on driver dynamics and I feel they did lose their way with the size and weight of the M3 and M4 becoming such that you can no longer flick them around tight mountain roads (hence the M2 being needed) and the damping quality of anything less than the ZCP packs is truly awful vs audis magnetic ride for example, but hopefully they work it out over the next couple of revisions.

[OutlawX3M]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

If you look back in time through all of your old car magazines (I know you still have them), it's amazing how the automotive enthusiasts, specifically those writing Motor Trend, C&D, R&T, etc. have almost flipped on BMW.

In the past, it was literally nothing but praise, "BMW is leaps and bounds ahead..." stuff like that. Now, everyone is pissed at the fake sound in the cockpit, the "crappy" 6-Spd manual, the turbo V6 vs. the Naturally Aspirated V8, the weight, the handling, the looks, etc...

Thoughts?????

IMO, there's also a whole new generation of writers that have grown up reading those awesome reviews so their expectations of BMWs are fairly high. Then you have other manufacturers upping their game and suddenly these "new" guys are thinking, what's so great about BMW?

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by BMW_2014

IDK, maybe it's me, but I think it's about time for people to start giving BMW a break for not being the same exact cars they made in the 1980s-1990s...

Thoughts?????

Complacency is the death knell of any business.

[scoobysaurus]

The fact is that BMW has moved on whether we like it or not.

However the good news is that other brands still continue to build exactly what enthusiasts want. So instead of crying over spilt milk, vote with your wallet for manufacturers that sell you what you want - that's what I'm doing. If I buy another BMW it's going to be a naturally aspirated V8 or V10 M car.

[MikeRR]

I would say it is not BMW it is the automotive market that has moved on and it keeps moving. I also don't like the direction it is heading to but we can still drive "oldtimers" if we like.

[MalibuBimmer]

I love my M4. The V6 engine is terrific. But that's what I've come to expect from a manufacturer that has specialized in making V6 engines from the beginning of its history. In fact, my very first BMW was a V6 -- the 2800 Bavaria. And a long line of V6 engines since then.

/sarcasm

[radiofrequency]

Originally Posted by T1M

The new M3 ZCP kit had nice interior finish quality, but the non zcp is lacking vs Audi, Mercedes c class etc. BMW have always had minimalist interior design, but what they do include needs to be stepped up a notch. Audis switchgear is stellar in feel and sound, the tactility of the knobs/buttons is all designed in their sound lab. Cup holders nicely integrated into the centre console vs BMW's stick on solutions or flip out plasticky things, yeah, they've got some work to do.

They have always focused on driver dynamics and I feel they did lose their way with the size and weight of the M3 and M4 becoming such that you can no longer flick them around tight mountain roads (hence the M2 being needed) and the damping quality of anything less than the ZCP packs is truly awful vs audis magnetic ride for example, but hopefully they work it out over the next couple of revisions.

T1M has hit on something here in his first paragraph. If you go back to the E30, one of the first BMW's I had a chance to drive, the interior was stellar in comparison to the vehicles of the time. IMHO, and this back in 1985, the only car that came close to that quality was the Golf (all I could afford then 85 GTi). My wife and were recently looking for a replacement vehicle for her, and one car on her list was the 435i GT. I was shocked at how decontented the interior felt compared to my 2011 M3, it just felt cheap. BMW interiors used to be the cream of the crop, but no more.

With respect to Governments dictating emissions, IMHO, this has caused a dumbing down (and inefficiency) of what could really be achieved with the internal combustion engine. If you take computers for instance, consumer demand drove the improvements, you're talking to someone who started out with DOS on a Commodore, and now has a family with 6 Apple tV's and 7 Apple computers in the home. There wasn't a bureaucrat who stepped up and demanded faster computers and better phones - the industry was pushed by the consumer to build better, faster machines. There is generation growing up now that seek the same trajectory in their vehicles, and manufacturers are offering heaps of fun in vehicles like the Mazda 2, Fiat 500 and a host of others based on demand from the younger crowd. My first car had 65hp ('67 Opel Kadett), the Fiat 500 Abarth has 200 hp with close to 40 MPG and handling to boot. No one forced Mr. Musk to build a Tesla, he decided to start a company against all odds and now I see Tesla's everywhere. It would be a wonderful day if regulators could step away from making inane rules and allow the unbridled development of the internal combustion engine - to make more power using less fuel. Heck, the other day I saw a Porsche Cayenne plugged into an electric vehicle power point near a movie theater in my neighborhood - surely the was not a car built by the UN, but merely sold because Porsche realizes that within its demographic there exists a potential to increase market share of its customer base by offering vehicles that consumers want to buy.

[Chihuahua]

Originally Posted by radiofrequency

T1M has hit on something here in his first paragraph. If you go back to the E30, one of the first BMW's I had a chance to drive, the interior was stellar in comparison to the vehicles of the time.

+1, the quality of materials in my E30 is superior to what I saw in an F30 320i I was considering. My E30s rear center console is hard plastic wrapped in vinyl, not just grained hard plastic. I'm also very surprised at how cheap the interior of the typical F30 feels, I don't see much difference between it and the interior of something like a Hyundai Sonata. I'm now on the hunt for a low mileage E90/E92, and it will likely be my last BMW.

[T1M]

The interiors and damping really let the new BMWs down badly. In the E46, everything was soft touch plastics, leather, nice clicks and feel to the knobs and switches. The E90's we're decent, my 1M is decent, but the new F models are awful, with the exception of the ZCP pack on the M3 - it's reminiscent of the old, well built interiors. That said though Audi and Mercedes have pushed beyond that, and jag have too with the F-pace, hell even the 'old interior' F-type coupe is far better (perhaps not a fair comparison being twice the price though). I think unless you want a specific engine experience like an NA V8 or V10, which are older models anyway, BMW have nothing to offer right now that's not bettered by another marque.

[tuco44]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I love my M4. The V6 engine is terrific. But that's what I've come to expect from a manufacturer that has specialized in making V6 engines from the beginning of its history. In fact, my very first BMW was a V6 -- the 2800 Bavaria. And a long line of V6 engines since then.

/sarcasm

It's news to me that BMW has V6 engines............where did you get the "long line of V6 engines"?

[Outlaw 06]

I’m assuming that the OP’s reference to a V6 powered M3 was a typo.

That said, the reason why most other carmakers have switched to run-of-the-mill, noisy, vibrating, harsh V6 engines is because they’re cheaper to build and easier to package in front wheel drive cars than I6 engines. BMW has already abandoned the silky smooth, naturally aspirated I6 engine, so with the turbocharged direction they’ve embraced, V6 engines (and front wheel drive) are almost certainly in BMW’s future. Most customers probably won’t notice and don’t care about the powertrain configuration of their leased BMWs anyway. Additionally, horrible levels of engine Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) don’t seem to matter much to BMW engineers anymore, as anybody who's driven a turbocharged N20 I4 powered car with the equally horrible start stop and default comfort mode features can attest to (for those who don’t know, the N20 is a rattling, unbalanced, embarrassment).

[MalibuBimmer]

Originally Posted by tuco44

It's news to me that BMW has V6 engines............where did you get the "long line of V6 engines"?

Sarcasm. By my count I've had 8 straight 6 engines. The first was 2800cc. The rest have been 3000cc.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by MalibuBimmer

I love my M4. The V6 engine is terrific. But that's what I've come to expect from a manufacturer that has specialized in making V6 engines from the beginning of its history. In fact, my very first BMW was a V6 -- the 2800 Bavaria. And a long line of V6 engines since then.

/sarcasm

Your humor is "inline" with mine. I hope the OP does not mind being pist-on, regardless of the configuration. Bravo

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Kyle B

Complacency is the death knell of any business.

Yes, but BMW is not complacent. They know exactly what they are doing. We may not like where they are going each step of the way, but their strategy is not defined by the fraction of 1% that hang out on these forums. BMW continually evolves and is introducing amazing new products for a world market. I think they are doing a great job.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by Outlaw 06

... Most customers probably won’t notice and don’t care about the powertrain configuration of their leased BMWs anyway. Additionally, horrible levels of engine Noise, Vibration and Harshness (NVH) don’t seem to matter much to BMW engineers anymore, as anybody who's driven a turbocharged N20 I4 powered car with the equally horrible start stop and default comfort mode features can attest to (for those who don’t know, the N20 is a rattling, unbalanced, embarrassment).

We are already on to 1.5-litre 3-cylinder engines in the 1, 2 & 3-series over here in Europe. Essential for BMW to meet current legislation and emission targets.

Then we were having EPS in some of the E9x models, hardly got a mention. It was only when the F3x models came along and the rollout to all models that the steering got the bashing.

Many UK users applauded BMW for softening the F3x suspensions as well. Ride quality is coming back in fashion, after the pseudo sport feel we've been fed as the way to drive.

[Nitrousbird]

BMW's are still depreciating badly. Sadly, I can't think of the next used BMW I would buy (no way I'd take a bath on a new one). E92 M3, but that's the same car. Newer M4 isn't as exciting to me...and at that price point the competition has a more compelling product.

Not that it matters, I seem to run cars into the ground and my E92 has a lot of life left in her...I probably have another 5 years before I think about my next car purchase.