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      06-16-2014, 04:01 AM   #1
boostjustkickedin
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Last edited by boostjustkickedin; 09-02-2014 at 11:22 AM..
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      06-16-2014, 07:39 AM   #2
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I have absolutely no idea, but I want to point out that if it was happening bone stock, then "masking" it with the JB4 is probably a bad idea.

Good luck!
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      06-17-2014, 11:17 AM   #3
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Mine does something similar. The BOV sounds kind of delayed on a high throttle high rpm shift from 1st to 2nd especially.
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      06-17-2014, 03:13 PM   #4
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My does the exact same thing if I get on it fast then let off. I have no idea what it is, I just came to live with it.
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      06-18-2014, 09:35 AM   #5
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The throttle opening back up makes sense after the injectors stop spraying fuel in a 0% accelerator situation. It will reduce lag the next time you press the accelerator down as it allows the turbo to keep spinning with less resistance.

Not sure I'd consider it a problem. The stock diverter valves were certainly designed with this in mind, so if your HKS setup has symptoms perhaps it's not the best DV/BOV solution.
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      06-18-2014, 10:19 AM   #6
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My guess would be there is a possible vacuum leak. Maybe a line leading to one of your wastegates. What spring are you running in your bov?
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      06-18-2014, 08:06 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
My guess would be there is a possible vacuum leak. Maybe a line leading to one of your wastegates. What spring are you running in your bov?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
The throttle opening back up makes sense after the injectors stop spraying fuel in a 0% accelerator situation. It will reduce lag the next time you press the accelerator down as it allows the turbo to keep spinning with less resistance.

Not sure I'd consider it a problem. The stock diverter valves were certainly designed with this in mind, so if your HKS setup has symptoms perhaps it's not the best DV/BOV solution.
You are right...the ECU is obviously trying to control BOV operation via intake manifold vacuum using throttle body angle...I just don't know for what reason...I thinks its stupid and I want to get rid of it....sadly i think this is deeply coded in the throttle body map tables...

My theories:

-The car will hold 5 PSI every time I let off at HI LOAD/HI RPM...its always 5 PSI, Sometimes it reminds me of a NO LIFT SHIFT setup....Initially it'll blow off anything over 5psi, when it hits 5psi, the throttle body opens for what seems like a preset time frame(in milli second I guess) causing the BOV to seal for fractions of a second, and then blow off everything....Maybe BMW internationally coded this so that when you engage the next gear (6mt) the system is already in positive pressure, instead of having to start from vacum, yielding faster boost buildup.

-Some type of PCV gass recirculation technique by BMW...which doesn't really make sense given the symptoms.


The HKS bov is replicating exactly what the stock BOV's did down to the milli second...I am 100% sure it is not the HKS bov or it's current calibration...BTW I am using the stock 11psi springs, I get no fluttering, and the valve does not open during idle...the calibration is perfect.

Ive read a lot of members on here have this "hi load/hi RPM double blow off" using all types off diff BOV...its the ECU trying to control boost pressure during overrun..

To me it's a huge issue, almost a make it or break it type issue

Has anyone tried fixing this thru a cobb tune? iirc, cobb gives you access to absolutely all ECU reference tables

?
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      06-18-2014, 08:14 PM   #8
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JB4 Team confirmed that there's no adjustment on the JB4 to remove this automatic opening of the TB...sadly
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      06-18-2014, 09:03 PM   #9
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The accelerator pedal in this car is not so much controlling the throttle plate as it is defining a target load. Then the ECU decides how to get the load through changing the throttle plate angle and wastegate control, and at least to some extent even timing.

The idea that your foot controls the throttle plate has been broken for years as just about every modern car has an electronic throttle. Even in naturally aspirated cars there is a fair amount of decoupling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Savir04 View Post
the ECU is obviously trying to control BOV operation via intake manifold vacuum using throttle body angle...
You are unnecessarily fixated on the BOV. The BOV's primary purpose is not to be manipulated to make cool sounds. It's there to avoid damage to the turbo from compressor surge.

Your statement is like saying VANOS's purpose is to manipulate oil flow rate through the oil filter. While they are attached functionally, your line-drawing between the two is nonsensical.
Quote:
I just don't know for what reason...
Already answered this for you. It reduces lag. If the throttle remained closed, the turbos would spin down further and faster, increasing lag when you press the accelerator again.

Particularly for turbocharged cars, keeping the throttle closed when you are coasting in gear is just wasting energy, both from a performance and fuel economy perspective.
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I thinks its stupid [...] To me it's a huge issue, almost a make it or break it type issue
You really should reconsider this attitude...
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cobb gives you access to absolutely all ECU reference tables
Not remotely true. It's not practical. But do they expose enough? In my opinion, yes.
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Last edited by Freon; 06-18-2014 at 09:28 PM..
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      06-18-2014, 09:35 PM   #10
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My guess is still a vacuum leak somewhere in the system. Maybe an old line is collapsing under certain vacuum.
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      06-18-2014, 11:22 PM   #11
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I had a similar affect - was a failed DME. No mean to get paranoid, but just letting you know.
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      06-22-2014, 10:07 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
The accelerator pedal in this car is not so much controlling the throttle plate as it is defining a target load. Then the ECU decides how to get the load through changing the throttle plate angle and wastegate control, and at least to some extent even timing.

The idea that your foot controls the throttle plate has been broken for years as just about every modern car has an electronic throttle. Even in naturally aspirated cars there is a fair amount of decoupling.
Correct, I never said the accelerator pedal was directly linked to throttle body valve angle...I fully understand how LOAD based management works on turbo cars...


Quote:
Originally Posted by savir04
the ECU is obviously trying to control BOV operation via intake manifold vacuum using throttle body angle...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
You are unnecessarily fixated on the BOV. The BOV's primary purpose is not to be manipulated to make cool sounds. It's there to avoid damage to the turbo from compressor surge.
Look, I've been working on load based, DI, turbo engines for a while, I know exactly what the function of a pressure relief valve is...this thread has nothing to do with sounds of a BOV, I am using reference to the sound as "double blow off" as a measure of diagnostics, and so ya'll can grasp a feel for the issue I have because I need help on this one.

I am here because the DME is internationally creating a 5PSI spike letting off at HI LOAD/HI RPM...and I am concerned that the turbo's are surging during this event, it also introduces a bunch of drivability problems that i'm not even gonna get to.... huge drivability issue for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Your statement is like saying VANOS's purpose is to manipulate oil flow rate through the oil filter. While they are attached functionally, your line-drawing between the two is nonsensical.
I think you've misunderstood what I wrote...let me explain....Now a days a lot of turbo cars use a solenoid to control the pressure relief valve, for example Volkswagen, ford. This set up gives the ECU full control over the pressure relief valve via the solenoid, this means the ecu can open the pressure relief valve regardless of intake manifold pressure..in the n54 engine, bmw interestingly chose to use a 100% mechanical/analog set up for the PRESSURE RELIEF VALVE, on top of that 2 valves! from factory, which is an odd setup imo for such a recent car...no solenoid inline or nothing, just pure mechanical vacuum operated set up...The DME has no DIRECT CONTROL over the pressure relief valve.

With that said, The DME has very smart logic, I am sure that the DME knows there are mechanical pressure relief valves in place, and knows that it does not have DIRECT control over them...and I'm sure that it is written in its logic that if it needed to control the pressure relief valve for whatever reason, it would by manipulating intake manifold pressure using throttle body angle...its literally the only tie the DME has to the mechanical pressure relief valve...right or wrong?...according to you, that's actually exactly what the DME is doing right? spiking the throttle body open after letting off the accelerator so that the pressure relief valve seals and holds 5 PSI between gear changes?...I understand, I just need to get rid of this for the sake of drivability

Quote:
Originally Posted by savir04
I just don't know for what reason...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Already answered this for you. It reduces lag. If the throttle remained closed, the turbos would spin down further and faster, increasing lag when you press the accelerator again.

Particularly for turbocharged cars, keeping the throttle closed when you are coasting in gear is just wasting energy, both from a performance and fuel economy perspective.
I understand the concept, But I haven't found any genuine technical explanation of why the car does this, there's a lot of GUESSING going on IMO in reference to this hiload/hiRPM throttle body spike...but if I had to come up with an explanation myself, I'd agree with you that the DME is intentionally doing this to hold 5psi between gear changes...does your car do it? like in my video? are the turbo's not surging?


Quote:
Originally Posted by savir04
iirc, cobb gives you access to absolutely all ECU reference tables
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freon View Post
Not remotely true. It's not practical. But do they expose enough? In my opinion, yes.
This was more of a question, not a statement...which is not shown here because only half of the sentence was quoted, completely isolating it from its original context...the quoted text should have been quoted entirely.
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      06-22-2014, 10:11 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
My guess is still a vacuum leak somewhere in the system. Maybe an old line is collapsing under certain vacuum.
Could be, but, would that explain the spike in throttle body angle after letting off the accelerator?...I think the spike in throttle body angle is exactly what's causing the car to hold 5psi between gear changes...I think Freon is right about it being being a built in feature of the DME...with stock software anyway...
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      06-22-2014, 10:13 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geared View Post
I had a similar affect - was a failed DME. No mean to get paranoid, but just letting you know.
Oh man, really hope not...did you take any logs before replacing it? did it go away after replacing it?
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      06-22-2014, 10:14 PM   #15
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I think bmw released a software update for these cars as a recall a while after they first came out....could this be a feature that was added in the update? to reduce lag between shifts?
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      06-23-2014, 01:45 PM   #16
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I believe this is to "pre boost" during the shift. Logic dictates if you go that high in a gear you want to move fast. So throttle close to give you some boost so next shift don't have lag, at least less. I was confused by this when I put my bov. After some logs and thinking, made sense. So I timed the throttle closure and shifted before opens again and got a nice pull.

Besides, bovs are to release surges and prevent turbo back spin. When the throttle opens and the bov closes. The air flow goes in to the engine, so won't harm the engine.
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      06-23-2014, 07:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savir04 View Post
I am here because the DME is internationally creating a 5PSI spike letting off at HI LOAD/HI RPM...and I am concerned that the turbo's are surging during this event, it also introduces a bunch of drivability problems that i'm not even gonna get to.... huge drivability issue for me.
Can you be more specific about your drivability issues? There's nothing wrong with what I can see from your logs or video. I don't hear any surge and suspect there is none worth noting.

Further, there's nothing happening with the throttle that you couldn't reproduce with your right foot. If the car is surging when the throttle blips (which it should not and is not), then the BPV system is the problem (valve design/flow insufficient, valve sticking, valve preload too high, lines too big, lines clogged, lines collapsing), not the throttle behavior. It doesn't make sense to point the finger at the ETC behavior as the problem causing your BPV to not work. It's not a line of reasoning that adds up. And again, you're not surging.
Quote:
I am sure that the DME knows there are mechanical pressure relief valves in place and knows that it does not have DIRECT control over them...and I'm sure that it is written in its logic that if it needed to control the pressure relief valve for whatever reason, it would by manipulating intake manifold pressure using throttle body angle...its literally the only tie the DME has to the mechanical pressure relief valve...right or wrong?...according to you, that's actually exactly what the DME is doing right? spiking the throttle body open after letting off the accelerator so that the pressure relief valve seals and holds 5 PSI between gear changes?...I understand, I just need to get rid of this for the sake of drivability
This is literally turning into a conspiracy theory.

Your statement with regards being "sure" the DME "knows" about the BPV would make sense if there was a BPV position sensor, but there isn't.

You are unnecessarily fixated on the BPV behavior as some sort of goal criteria for the throttle behavior. The BPV is just there to open when the throttle is not so the turbo doesn't get damaged, and that's a simple pneumatic connection.

I think you need to start back on step #1 and explain your problem. Now you're pushing it as a drivability issue, so perhaps add more details on that. There's no surge, so let's move on to the symptom that really matters.
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