What tune are you running on your x5m

[snowild]

I meant 531hp but what i was more impress with is the torque. I definitely want to push it a little more which i know the car can handle but the only weak link is the transfer case. there's so much torque the weight and different tire sizes got me scratching my head

I have catless downpipes and an axle back exhaust from GT Haus.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by snowild

the part number for those Mplugs is 12120037581

Thanks for that. I did a deep dive on Sparkplugs for the n63/s63 last night, appears that the plugs BMW specifies are all indexed specific to that engine. I didn't think indexing mattered anymore on direct injection engines but turns out it's just as important if not more then port injected engines according to Bosch and the SAE white paper I just read. I highly doubt the NGK's are indexed from th factory. This would explain the increased power you make over the NGK's.

The Bosch 8165 plug is supposedly identical to the plug part number you listed, minus the M tax (they are around 9 dollars a plug shipped). I am picking up a set today, will be interesting to see if they are Indexed when torqued to spec, if they turn out not to be indexed then looks like the M tax is more then just the logo on the plug.

Will also be interesting to see how the NGK's were indexed from the factory when I pull them out. Will post back what I find later tonight.

https://www.thomasgroupltd.co.uk/spa...ect-injection/

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2017-01-0680/

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by snowild

I meant 531hp but what i was more impress with is the torque. I definitely want to push it a little more which i know the car can handle but the only weak link is the transfer case. there's so much torque the weight and different tire sizes got me scratching my head

I have catless downpipes and an axle back exhaust from GT Haus.

Those are great numbers! Especially for stock turbos.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Thanks for that. I did a deep dive on Sparkplugs for the n63/s63 last night, appears that the plugs BMW specifies are all indexed specific to that engine. I didn't think indexing mattered anymore on direct injection engines but turns out it's just as important if not more then port injected engines according to Bosch and the SAE white paper I just read. I highly doubt the NGK's are indexed from th factory. This would explain the increased power you make over the NGK's.

The Bosch 8165 plug is supposedly identical to the plug part number you listed, minus the M tax (they are around 9 dollars a plug shipped). I am picking up a set today, will be interesting to see if they are Indexed when torqued to spec, if they turn out not to be indexed then looks like the M tax is more then just the logo on the plug.

Will also be interesting to see how the NGK's were indexed from the factory when I pull them out. Will post back what I find later tonight.

https://www.thomasgroupltd.co.uk/spa...ect-injection/

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2017-01-0680/

What does the get 'indexed' mean for spark plugs?

I am running the NGK 97506 on mine which were suppose to be two steps colder.

Gapped at .020

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

What does the get 'indexed' mean for spark plugs?

I am running the NGK 97506 on mine which were suppose to be two steps colder.

Gapped at .020

Indexed means the how open side of the spark plug faces. Back in the day of carbs and port injection, you wanted this side to face the intake ports as the fuel was coming in from the intake ports, if the ground electrode was facing the intake ports, it would effectively shield the spark from the incoming air/fuel mixture, delaying ignition and reducing power.

With direct Injection, it appears to be just as important that the open side faces the Injector to optimize ignition of the air/file mixture.

The factory Bosch plugs are supposedly already indexed when you torque them to spec. Who knows with the NGK's, I'll find out tonight and report back (I have the same NGK's as you and cylinder heads are the same between the n63 & s63)

TLDR version: Point your spark towards the air/fuel mixture.

[Autobacs]

Interesting. However, I don't see how torqueing it to spec will guarantee it will be indexed. Granted the area of the ground electrode shielding the electrode itself is small compared to the rest of the area surrounding the electrode, it would still be by chance, although it is a very good chance the open side will be facing the fuel injector. What am I missing here, if any?

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Indexed means the how open side of the spark plug faces. Back in the day of carbs and port injection, you wanted this side to face the intake ports as the fuel was coming in from the intake ports, if the ground electrode was facing the intake ports, it would effectively shield the spark from the incoming air/fuel mixture, delaying ignition and reducing power.

With direct Injection, it appears to be just as important that the open side faces the Injector to optimize ignition of the air/file mixture.

The factory Bosch plugs are supposedly already indexed when you torque them to spec. Who knows with the NGK's, I'll find out tonight and report back (I have the same NGK's as you and cylinder heads are the same between the n63 & s63)

TLDR version: Point your spark towards the air/fuel mixture.

But how can you check that (with out a small camera I guess).

And how much of a guarantee is there that index plugs will sit exactly like that...

Please let me know. Will definitely switch if there is even a small advantage.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

But how can you check that (with out a small camera I guess).

And how much of a guarantee is there that index plugs will sit exactly like that...

Please let me know. Will definitely switch if there is even a small advantage.

Easiest way is to Mark the extension or spark plug socket, the pull the plug, being careful not to let the plug slip out, and from there you can conclude how the plug was indexed. They sell shims that allow you to index it If it doesn't line up.

In the case of the Bosch plugs, I will align the ground electrode with Mark on the extension attached to the spark plug socket, if it's truly indexed from the factory, then when I reach the specified torque that BMW calls for (don't remember it off top of head), the ground strap should be on on the opposite side of the injector, in the case of the n63/s63, this means the ground electrode should be closest to the exhaust valves and my mark on the extension should show that (basically Mark will be pointing straight up).

Will know soon and report back later tonight and post some pics so it's easier to see whats going on.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Easiest way is to Mark the extension or spark plug socket, the pull the plug, being careful not to let the plug slip out, and from there you can conclude how the plug was indexed. They sell shims that allow you to index it If it doesn't line up.

In the case of the Bosch plugs, I will align the ground electrode with Mark on the extension attached to the spark plug socket, if it's truly indexed from the factory, then when I reach the specified torque that BMW calls for (don't remember it off top of head), the ground strap should be on on the opposite side of the injector, in the case of the n63/s63, this means the ground electrode should be closest to the exhaust valves and my mark on the extension should show that (basically Mark will be pointing straight up).

Will know soon and report back later tonight and post some pics so it's easier to see whats going on.

Sweet, thanks!

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Pulled the NGK's and checked the index, they are NOT indexed for the N63/S63 from the factory (no surprise). 5 were completely the opposite of what you want, with the ground electrode right next to the injector and intake ports, effectively shrouding the spark . The other 3 were nearly as bad as the other 5. It will be interesting to see what difference it makes on mpg, idle quality, and power once plugs that are properly indexed are installed.

The new Bosch plugs got delayed and wont be here until tomorrow (hopefully). Will report back as soon as they arrived and if they are properly indexed from the factory for the N63/S63

[quick]

Doubt mechanics/people around the world care about indexing the spark plugs. You think BMW does it too?

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Pulled the NGK's and checked the index, they are NOT indexed for the N63/S63 from the factory (no surprise). 5 were completely the opposite of what you want, with the ground electrode right next to the injector and intake ports, effectively shrouding the spark . The other 3 were nearly as bad as the other 5. It will be interesting to see what difference it makes on mpg, idle quality, and power once plugs that are properly indexed are installed.

The new Bosch plugs got delayed and wont be here until tomorrow (hopefully). Will report back as soon as they arrived and if they are properly indexed from the factory for the N63/S63

Waiting patiently with you, thanks for doing the research!

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by quick

Doubt mechanics/people around the world care about indexing the spark plugs. You think BMW does it too?

If it provides performance, why not?

I get it that using non indexed ones get us by ..Ive been using the NGK for a while now. But if the indexed ones provide even marginal performance gains...why wouldn't you want to run whatever is optimal?

[quick]

Indexing the spark plugs means (correct me if I am wrong), they have to be inserted in a specific way and then torqued to a particular spec, right? Don't think non BMW mechanic/people would even know that this vehicle needs special plugs that needs to be indexed/torqued, forget it.

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by quick

Doubt mechanics/people around the world care about indexing the spark plugs. You think BMW does it too?

Don't understand your post, but I think you are asking if BMW indexes the spark plugs? Its a fact that they do, all BMW factory spark plugs for all current models are model specific so that when torqued they are automatically indexed without the need for shims.

The real question is how much of a performance hit is this on the N63/S63? How does this effect idle quality? How does this effect MPG? Is it worth the extra work to index on plugs like the NGK's that are not engine-specfic? Logic would dictate It must be worthwhile for BMW engineers to work with Bosch Engineers to have it built into a plug.

My personal experience is a hit in both MPG and idle quality when I went to the NGK's. Turns out NONE are indexed properly, and thats not NGK's fault, they are not engine specific and require shims to index, I did not know about indexing importance on GDI engines (thought it was just for port injection/carb engines)at the time of install like most because it is never talked about . I just installed the new Bosch 8165's. All are Indexed properly right from the factory as soon as 23nm is reached, no shims are needed. How will this effect MPG, Performance, Idle quality? We are about to find out.

But don't take my work for it, read up on the links below.

https://www.thomasgroupltd.co.uk/spa...ect-injection/

https://saemobilus.sae.org/content/2017-01-0680/

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Waiting patiently with you, thanks for doing the research!

Happy to report the OEM Bosch 8165 (also known ZR5TPP330) all are perfectly indexed in the N63/S63 head. So the difference between the BMW version and the OEM version appears to be just the labeling. I picked these up at a local Autozone for 15.99 each. My original Amazon order never arrived, they have from for about 10 dollars each however there are mixed reviews with some claiming they are counterfeits. When the order finally arrives I will check them before I send them back to see if they are real or not out of curiosity.

So we know the science behind indexing, but how much difference does it really matter in real life on the N63/S63? I will find out soon with some real world tests on idle quality, MPG and what its effect (if any) on 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. My best to date is 0-60 in 4.4 and 12.4 1/4 mile on the stage 1 ESS 91 octane tune with downpipes according to my draggy. I average 16.8mpg and have been consistently with my heavy right foot ever since the NGK's were installed many months ago. Will post back in the next day or two when I have time to test if it made any difference on power/idle quality, and in a few weeks on MPG.

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Happy to report the OEM Bosch 8165 (also known ZR5TPP330) all are perfectly indexed in the N63/S63 head. So the difference between the BMW version and the OEM version appears to be just the labeling. I picked these up at a local Autozone for 15.99 each. My original Amazon order never arrived, they have from for about 10 dollars each however there are mixed reviews with some claiming they are counterfeits. When the order finally arrives I will check them before I send them back to see if they are real or not out of curiosity.

So we know the science behind indexing, but how much difference does it really matter in real life on the N63/S63? I will find out soon with some real world tests on idle quality, MPG and what its effect (if any) on 0-60 and 1/4 mile times. My best to date is 0-60 in 4.4 and 12.4 1/4 mile on the stage 1 ESS 91 octane tune with downpipes according to my draggy. I average 16.8mpg and have been consistently with my heavy right foot ever since the NGK's were installed many months ago. Will post back in the next day or two when I have time to test if it made any difference on power/idle quality, and in a few weeks on MPG.

I've seriously never waited for a post from someone as much as I'm waiting to hear the results on this.

I have the Bosch waiting in my fcp cart. Lol

[Dawgz]

Hey btw isn't the oe to (the one that snowild refered to) https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...x6-12120037581

This?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...ch-12120037580

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

Hey btw isn't the oe to (the one that snowild refered to) https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...x6-12120037581

This?

https://www.fcpeuro.com/products/bmw...ch-12120037580

Appears to be and it's the same plug I just installed (it has both ZR5TPP33 and 8165 stamped on it) although I paid about double that price local as I wanted to get it done this weekend and Amazon dorked my original order.

The real question is does Bosch do anything special to the plug for BMW other then just slap on the M logo and quadruple the price? #///Mtax

[Sophisticated Redneck]

Just found this:

8179 (ZMR5TPP330) has recently been superseded to 8165 (ZR5TPP330). Catalog is still showing the 8179. The main difference (besides the “M” in the type formula designating the BMW “M” series vehicles) is that the 8179 has an 8mm diameter center electrode; the 8165 has a 6mm diameter center electrode. The 8179 has a couple of fewer threads at the foot of the housing versus the 8165 - but all of the other critical dimensions are identical. Both spark plugs are indexed (meaning they must be properly tightened by torque wrench; torque specs are printed on the individual spark plug package - no hand-tightening to “xx” degrees otherwise spark plug and/or engine damage could occur) Also, important to note that the customer should not use anti-seize; as this can cause over-torqueing (spark plug and/or engine damage could occur).

Engineering approved the supersession for the IAM, so the customer can be assured about using the 8165 if the 8179 is no longer available at his parts store.

Regards, Thank You, Bosch Automotive Aftermarket Parts Hotline

[Dawgz]

Originally Posted by Sophisticated Redneck

Appears to be and it's the same plug I just installed (it has both ZR5TPP33 and 8165 stamped on it) although I paid about double that price local as I wanted to get it done this weekend and Amazon dorked my original order.

The real question is does Bosch do anything special to the plug for BMW other then just slap on the M logo and quadruple the price? #///Mtax

On your latter statement, I doubt it. But at this point all this is surprising to me.

[Thecastle]

Originally Posted by Dawgz

This is with stock turbos? If so that's pretty amazing.

Downpipes?

Also do you mean 531hp or 611? The picture shows max 531whp

611 shows as engine power...I assume that's crank.

460whp is typical stock so his tune is 531whp So about a 60hp gain at the wheels which is nothing to sneeze at. Most tunes are around ~500. Depending on correction factors. http://www.velosdesignwerks.com/wp-c...ware-chart.jpg

Stock vs tuned.