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      02-22-2015, 09:25 PM   #1
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Fluid Service

I know this topic has been discussed a little bit in previous posts, but I'm looking for some feedback from those with an experienced opinion. I'm recently out of factory warranty, so I'm maintaining things myself going forward. BMW recommends no change to the following fluids unless there is a problem: 1. Transmission 2. Differentials (f/r) 3. Transfer case and 4. Coolant. The dealership has gone so far as to say that changing such fluids may actually cause problems. While I know they have the minimal service strategy to keep things cheaper for them during the 4/50 warranty, BMW must be confident in these fluids. In making these recommendations, BMW assumes substantial reputational and operational risk if these fluids become responsible for later mechanical failures, regardless of warranty expiry (e.g. GM Dexcool Antifreeze class action debacle c. 2003). However, gurus such as Bavarian Auto suggest that these fluids be replaced at regular intervals (e.g. 2-3 years for the coolant). In full disclosure, my '11 X5 3.5i has 49k miles on it, and at 5k miles per year, I'll probably only have it until it reaches 65k miles, so mechanical failure from the lack of fluid changes, regardless of opinion, won't happen while I own it. However, I like to maintain things as best I can, but don't want to be overzealous, What are your thoughts?
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      02-22-2015, 10:07 PM   #2
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First off coolant is replaced every 2 years (has in every BMW I have ever owned)

As for "lifetime fill" oils I change mine. Actually the X5 is having the transmission and differential fluids changed right now along with the N63 customer satisfaction service. My SA along with techs recommend changing these fluids. He called to give me an update and he said that the tech that performed the flush said the fluid needed changing. I do my oil changes every 7k and the diffs and trans at 40k increments.
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      02-22-2015, 10:26 PM   #3
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The N55 is an oil and water cooled turbo, I would personally at the very least change oil sooner than BMW recommends. However, they assume normal driving, and not "race car..."

So that said, following their recommended intervals will work. However conditions that increase the load on the engine/drivetrain would warrant a schedule sooner than normal. This really applies to ANY car.

Living in Chicago, your harsh winter, and sub freezing temps would warrant IMO brake and coolant changes sooner rather than later. Brakes as over time you accumulate moisture in the system, and you want to also make sure your anti-freeze/coolant is performing as expected.

Tow or do a lot of WOT driving, Engine Oil and trans fluid will be changed more often. I've killed a tranny due to not flushing fluid more often (within a year). I had a modded Chevy Suburban, with the crappy 4l60e, and had done a lot of shift/stall work not to mention another 30-50 more ft/lbs, and towing... I lost OD, and only had gears 1-3. If I changed fluid sooner, I would possibly have extended the life of it before a rebuild or upgrade to a 4l80.

With some 15k miles left, and a 5k/yr driving habit, I personally might only do brake fluid, coolant, and top off anything else as needed.
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      02-22-2015, 10:31 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRV99 View Post
First off coolant is replaced every 2 years (has in every BMW I have ever owned)

As for "lifetime fill" oils I change mine. Actually the X5 is having the transmission and differential fluids changed right now along with the N63 customer satisfaction service. My SA along with techs recommend changing these fluids. He called to give me an update and he said that the tech that performed the flush said the fluid needed changing. I do my oil changes every 7k and the diffs and trans at 40k increments.
At which dealership is your SA? I assume Patrick. I've been using Perillo, but would be interested in speaking with your SA to refute the recommendations of the Perillo SA...
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      02-22-2015, 10:54 PM   #5
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I wouldn't flush the fluids, but I would have them changed along with filters if any.
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      02-22-2015, 11:02 PM   #6
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IMO diff and tranny fluids should be changed every 30k miles or at least every 60k miles.
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      02-23-2015, 07:51 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
IMO diff and tranny fluids should be changed every 30k miles or at least every 60k miles.
Is your opinion based on experience or the better-to-be-safe-than sorry approach?
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      02-23-2015, 09:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flying Ace View Post
IMO diff and tranny fluids should be changed every 30k miles or at least every 60k miles.
+1 the fluid was dirty at 30k -
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      02-23-2015, 10:23 AM   #9
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All fluid changed every 50K. 1. Transmission 2. Differentials (f/r) 3. Transfer case 4. Coolant. 5. Brake fluid.
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      02-23-2015, 10:24 AM   #10
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I imagine fluid would be dirty, but still functional. I just don't understand why the manufacturer would say to not change it, and two different SAs from different dealerships say entirely different things. Brake fluid is every two years.
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      02-23-2015, 10:45 AM   #11
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a lot of manufacturers are doing this now and I'm not sure how I feel about it. My Lexus (that I'm about to trade in for an X5) says lifetime coolant and transmission fluid. My wife's Outback claims lifetime CVT fluid. I'm just not comfortable with any of that, although they are closed systems and in theory they shouldn't ever have any contaminants introduced. That said, seals break down and leak and things will eventually become problematic.
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      02-23-2015, 11:06 AM   #12
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Regarding the transmission fluid, ZF confirmed "long life", but said it wouldn't do any harm changing with OEM fluids, since all fluids do eventually break down.
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      02-23-2015, 12:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppyboy View Post
Is your opinion based on experience or the better-to-be-safe-than sorry approach?
90% opinion as I've never analyzed the X5's old diff fluid before. That and the lifetime fluid concept further confirms that my view is my own opinion on the X5.

However, prior to my M3, I use to own a high performance AWD car, an Evo 8. With that car, the transmission (MT) servicing was set at 60k and all 3 differential fluids were serviced at 30k intervals. These were recommendations per Mitsubishi (with track servicing at 15k intervals).

I know, these are completely different cars, different parts, different fluid types, and even the center diff (transfer case) operates differently (viscous coupler vs e-controlled) but overall, given how much your front diff, center diff, and rear diff are working daily as you drive your car, a 30k interval (or even a 60k interval) should suffice on the X5 and better protect the gearboxes.

I plan on doing my flush at 60k for all my differentials. But I am in it for the long run with this truck. I think 30k may be overkill for the X5 though.

As for the ATF on the X5...I haven't made up my mind yet. That thing was designed not to completely drain out, unless you drop the entire pan and replace all the gaskets...what a PITA.
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      02-23-2015, 12:58 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JGard View Post
a lot of manufacturers are doing this now and I'm not sure how I feel about it. My Lexus (that I'm about to trade in for an X5) says lifetime coolant and transmission fluid. My wife's Outback claims lifetime CVT fluid. I'm just not comfortable with any of that, although they are closed systems and in theory they shouldn't ever have any contaminants introduced. That said, seals break down and leak and things will eventually become problematic.
It's not about "closed systems." It's whats in it that matter.

take an automatic transmission as an example. There are clutches, and clutch packs. material wears, and will get suspended in the fluid. This is why transmission fluid turns dark over time. This is why it should be replaced periodically.

Brake system are supposed to be closed too, but somehow, water gets in.

Coolant? Well it goes around an engine block, in our case turbos too. gaskets can fail, blocks can fail, etc; contaminating the supposedly closed system.

Manufacturers are looking at the bottom line, looking at sales history, forecasting car ownership, etc. If they can give you the perception of less maintenance, that would boost image, and potentially more sales. Knowing all the while they'll get you (or the next owner) on profitable service work in the future due to misleading maintenance schedules.
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      02-23-2015, 07:30 PM   #15
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BMW represents that these fluids don't need to be changed. If there's a mechanical failure due to the fluid not being changed, why would they put themselves at risk since their recommendation was followed? Isn't it much less risky for BMW to say to change at 60k miles (or something specific like that)? That way, it's no cost to BMW under the standard warranty plan, but a reasonable interval to prevent the fluid from mucking anything up under their recommended service interval. New BMW owners don't care about "less maintenance" vs. reasonable service intervals. They'd rather pay $800 every 60k miles to replace the transmission/diff/transfer case fluids and coolant because it makes sense and is (relatively) cheap insurance. Many new owners may even sell before 60k miles. I'm not being argumentative-I just don't get why BMW would go out on a limb like that unless there was significant truth to it.

Last edited by Poppyboy; 02-23-2015 at 07:43 PM.. Reason: Typo
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      02-23-2015, 08:59 PM   #16
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BMW must believe the fluids will last 100k as if a vehicle is under CPO and the transmission fails because the fluid wasn't changed, BMW would need to cover the repair under CPO warranty. They don't list those fluids to be replaced at all under a maintenance schedule. After 100k BMW doesn't have to worry about it. Many vehicles will never see 100k miles and the warranty (original or CPO) would have run out time wise by then. If BMW put those fluids on the schedule, then BMW is responsible for it. BMW does sell extended maintenance plans that cover the same period as the CPO warranty of the extended warranty does.
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      02-24-2015, 04:15 PM   #17
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There are a few topics I would like to address

1) Not all SA's are created equal. Some SA's are just working a job and will say what ever BMW tells them. Some SA's are car people. My SA (who is also a friend) spends alot of time at the track racing bikes, though not cars, he still is a motorsport enthusiast. He is friends with the Techs which work on these car and he has shared with me many of the things they have said about what they see when BMW's are in the shop. There are many issues which we have discussed which the techs support which is different than what BMW officially states.

2) One big reason for auto manufactures have extended all of their fluid intervals is based on the EPA desire to have auto manufactures cut down on the amount of automotive waste. As we all know you cannot fight the EPA and this is one way the automakers can appease them. Yes, newer fluids are much better than what they were in the past which allow for longer intervals but BMW's intervals may be too extreme.

3) BMW is also in the business to sell cars. You cannot get a BMW transmission rebuilt, you have to buy a re-manufactured unit. If a person has a 6-7 year old BMW, the cost to replace a trans is 5k+. That repair cost is close to 25% of the value of the car. In many instances, an individual will just purchase a new(er) car instead of spending that kind of money on repairs. BMW benefits from this by moving more iron.

4) If you look at what BMW is now doing, you will see that they are decreasing their intervals on newer cars from 15k down to 10k. Why... They are experiencing issues with these long engine oil intervals. Any person who know engines would agree turbo engines are much harder on oils than a NA car. Look at the N63 Customer Satisfaction "sudo recall" campaign. Besides the replacing of parts not associated with fluids, one thing they are doing is testing the timing chains for stretch and reducing the oil intervals to 10k. There is evidence that the long oil cycles has been shown to cause damage to the timing chains. BMW would not be reducing the intervals across the board if this was not a much larger issue.

There has been many threads debating changing fluid at 1/2 intervals and there is usually two sides, 1) they do it because people feel it is better for their cars 2) How can a shade tree mechanic know more about fluids in BMW than BMW the company. Well this changing of the intervals shows that even the mighty BMW was wrong on this topic.

5) Another item which is effecting this fluid interval shorting in the North American market is due to the way we drive our cars. The BMW engine was not designed to run of short periods of time at low RPMs. This contributes to issues with the oil and oiling systems. It is well know that these short driving cycles where the oil is not brought up to temp has caused many issue. The clogging of the EGR valves and condensation building up in the oil had created many issues of sludge in these engines. Many BMW mechanics have stated that these cars need to have some High RPM's put them on a regular basis to keep everything flowing properly. By trudging along a city speed, stoplights and low RPMs do not do justice. Even look at the BMW charging systems. Those who have dealt with the "Increased Batter Discharge" knows all to well the BMW states that an unfavorable driving profile is created by short commutes and not extended driving. BMW's quest for higher MPG has forced them to not engage the alternator to charge the batter all the time which leads to the battery not being charged as much as it used to. This is just another point which correlates to the why we drive our BMW's is causing the problem.


6) If you look at how BMW designed the filter systems on the fuel and transmission, you will see that they don't want to replace them. This makes no sense. The fuel filter is part of the fuel pump which make is expensive to replace. The transmission filter is now part into the transmission pan and is not replaceable. If you want a new filter, you have to replace the pan. On top of that, the pan is now made of plastic. If you do have the service done, a new pan has to be ordered. The techs have said once you remove the plastic pan, 8 out of 10 times it will never seal properly again and it will leak. Lets say you didn't ever change the fluid, if the filter is not removing the contaminates, then what good is it.


I have had the trans and diff fluids changed on all of my past BMW's and every time the fluids are replaced, the tech always say that it needed to be changed. This was true on my 545, 550, X5 and M3. If the techs say the fluid looks bad a my 30-50K intervals, imagine what it looks like at higher intervals...

Ok my rant is done.
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      02-24-2015, 04:58 PM   #18
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Since we're talking about fluids, my wife just calls me saying the X5 gave her a warning saying "coolant low". Can I just top this up myself, or do I need to take it in?
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      02-24-2015, 06:15 PM   #19
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You should be able to top it off, provided that you use the correct coolant. You don't want to mix different formulas.
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      02-24-2015, 06:16 PM   #20
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MRV99: Thank you very much for the rant. Your experience is very helpful for me to make a more informed decision!
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