03-25-2011, 01:11 AM | #23 |
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I will continue to use 10W-60 after the dealer installed it for my first service. It is simply the highest quality oil you could use and will protect the engine under all circumstances. Of course you can use whatever you want once you are out of warranty. All I have read about the TWS oil is that it is a very special oil that has been formulated and refined in its blend. These engines are in fact much different than the engines in the 50i. They have different pistons, a different oil pan, and different cylinder heads among the differences I have read about. They could in fact have different bearing clearances also, we have no way of knowing, without finding someone who can look in the factory engine specifications. Hopefully they will fix the ///M supplement manual so that it would spell it out for all of us once and for all.
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03-25-2011, 11:38 AM | #25 |
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In the simplest term, yes.
The engine is going to waste energy pushing through the thicker 60 weight oil, so it will make less than those engines using 30 weight. Also on cold starts, the 10w weight oil is going to circulate slower than the lighter 5w weight oil so there will be more wear and tear for the initial few seconds after cold start. |
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03-25-2011, 02:05 PM | #26 | |
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03-25-2011, 02:07 PM | #27 |
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03-25-2011, 03:52 PM | #28 | |
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I'll go with mobile 0w-40 European formula (better performance and better lubrication over 30) Or Castrol 0w-30 European formula (better performance than 40 little less lubrication) castrol European formula 30 grade is little thicker than any other 30 grade, you could say that is like 35. |
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03-25-2011, 05:37 PM | #30 |
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Very interesting read in regards to Castrol TWS.
http://m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=295656 Again, demonstrating that the quality of oil is not just about weights/viscosity. |
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03-25-2011, 05:38 PM | #31 | |
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The engine in the X5/6M uses the same oil as the one in my Alpina B7, which is 5w-30, same oil that's in all the new twin turbo V8. I had that confirmation from Alpina and M personal directly. What I posted about the 60 weight oil for the high rev NA M engines in M3,M5/6 and the ZM is what I gather from M personal. I also had a separate conversation with a AMG engine builder, who builds both engines in my CLS55 and my ML63, during email exchanges between him and I. He actually found me from mbworld when I posted his sign on my engine pic. He told me pretty much the same thing on oil weight and engine revs. |
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03-25-2011, 06:19 PM | #32 |
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Since you are linking thread on oil discussion, here is one from F-Chat on motor oil:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/faq...=haas_articles Hope the article isn't too technical or contains too many words for you, but it provide a wealth of oil information. Pay attention to chapter 9. In summary, the thicker 60 weight oil will reach the same oil pressure as the thinner 30 weight because there is a oil pressure regulator in the engine, but the flow rate will be around 50% of the 30 weight oil as at operating temperature the 60 weight oil is double the thickness. Less flow rate at max pressure means less cooling for the engine, also, the max pressure/flow rate will be reached at a lower rpm, so at the upper rpm range the 60 weight oil will not provide enough protection for the engine. Math, science and physics doesn't lie. The existing M engines, the NA I6, V8 and V10 all are designed with the reduced flow rate in mind, they have extra jets of oil shooting at proper places to make up for the cooling deficit from reduced oil flow rate. These high revving engines NEEDED the extra sticky oil to stay on their metal parts. No one said the Castrol 10w-60 is a bad oil, it's is a great oil and it can even be used in Ferrari instead of Shell oil, but it's just the wrong weight for the engine. |
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03-25-2011, 08:46 PM | #33 | |
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Look, nothing is wrong about what you said. What we are all trying to figure out SPECIFICLY is what BMW M is calling for as the standard oil to use for the X6M. That article is very generic in terms of motor oil and it's properties which is fine. No one is arguing against that. But we are all trying to figure out what is what is specificly speced out for the X6M. As you can see there are many conflicting information from many sources. Especially the contradictions from BMW service departments. Doesn't this bother you one bit? Have you brought yours in for service and what did they fill yours with? Bottom line is we need a clarification from BMW M to end this discussion. I love to contact BMW Motorsport, but can't find any contact info. Anyone have that info? I doubt they would take my call anyways...... BTW, one more thing. You keep refering to the need of the TWS in high revving engines. But what about load? A high or higher load motor also demands a more "sophisticated" oil. |
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03-28-2011, 10:16 PM | #34 |
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Look, load had nothing to do with the weight of the oil, weight is only a measure of the stickiness of the oil, that's why the high revving engines needs the extra sticky oil in order to stay on the metal parts, lighter oil will get fling off.
Simple experiment for you, grab a stick, dip it in water, than start swinging, does the water stay on? Do the same thing but dip it in honey, does it stay on? Modern synthetic oil molecules do not break down no matter the load, unlike regular mineral oil, all synthetic oil has the same base unbreakable base molecules, the difference being the additives that's added that separate brands and grade. The additives are mostly detergent that keeps the engine clean. BMW has specified the minimum API grade fro engine oil, Castrol 10w-60 and the Castrol 5w-30 that the X5/6M engine needs already met and exceed that grade, there is no added benefit of the additional 'additives' in the 10w-60, anyway most of the additional additives in the 10w-60 over the 5w-30 is for extending the viscosity range of the oil, giving it a 50 weight range. Again, BMW spec the Castrol 10w-60 for the V10, V8, I6 engine only because of the high revving nature of those engines, the extra stickiness is NEEDED. It's has nothing to do with the so called 'extra sophisticated' TWS 10w-60, it's just a myth within the TWS fan club that the TWS is 'better'. BMW could have spec Shell Helix 10w-60 for those engines as well, the Shell is equal if not better than the Castrol, but Castrol was spec-ed only because they had a contract with BMW, nothing more. |
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03-28-2011, 10:38 PM | #35 |
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Let me throw my 2 cents out here! W stands for WINTER, not weight. Oil is measured with viscosity. So for those of you using the wrong thicker oil, think this way if you force a thicker oil through smaller passage you're damaging the seals. Viscosity rating has something to do with WINTER due to oil freezing. Let me double check with my Army books lol....
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03-29-2011, 02:35 AM | #36 | |
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Hmmm....load does have a bearing (lol...no pun intened) on what type of oil is used. A typical factory Japanese speedbike that revs to 13k redline still calls for a 40 weight oil. It's not just about "high reving". Also to clarify, the term "high reving" is subjective. A MY 2000 BMW M5 revs "only" to 7000 rpm and that vehicle calls for the 10-60 TWS as well. Is that considered a "high reving" car? |
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03-29-2011, 02:22 PM | #37 | |
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Again, the correct oil is the 10w-30, a lot of the BMW dealers are just assuming it's a M and it will use the 10w-60 that's SPECIFICALLY stated for the other M engines. Then you factor in the bigger profit margin of the 10w-60 and you will see why a few dealers WANT to sell you that oil instead. BMW thought it was clear that the engine uses the 5w-30 as printed in he manual because they didn't specifically state the engine NEEDS 10w-60 like the other M engines. Common sense? The bikes uses 2-stroke engines, different architecture than the 4 stroke car engines, wrong comparison. And yes, 7000 rpm is already a high rev, it is a rpm range you don't normally see on most engines. Since you are the one wanting to use the thicker oil, you are the one who risk damaging your engine without sufficient oil cooling at the high end of the rev range. Both thinner oil and thicker oil will achieve the same oil pressure as spec by BMW, so it won't throw a low oil pressure code, but the flow of oil will be around half of 5w-30 at the top end of the rev range for the 10w-60, in effect you will be getting only half the cooling from oil sprays. Since you are filling the same amount of oil, the ECU won't throw a code for low oil volume, and you won't get a code for low flow as the ECU doesn't check for that either. in effect, you might think everything is fine since there is no code but you are damaging your engine in silent. I've had my confirmation for 5w-30 oil use from 2 sources, one from Alpina directly for my B7 engine and one from a M personal that I met before, two source that I believe are more reliable than dealers. |
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03-29-2011, 02:25 PM | #38 | |
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But since most people uses weight when referring different viscosity oil rating, the term weight stuck. |
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03-29-2011, 08:07 PM | #39 | |
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Ok here we go. Load, where do we start. A good example is a desiel engine for commercial trucks which is a low rpm high load motor. Motors such as this will need a higher grade motor oil because of the load that it takes through out the crank/main bearing area. What is an indication of good quality oil? Not just viscosity. Also the shear rating of the oil. A high load motor needs an oil that can withstand the the load where the shear rate of the oil is pushed to the limit. Imagine a combustion that is happening in a 5.0 liter motor, a 7.0 liter motor and a 1.0 liter motor. All operating at say a set RPM of 5000 RPM. Are you going to get the same "load" at the main bearing between the different motors? NO. It's not just about the viscosity of oil. Many many factors goes into making an oil. The same rated viscosity oil (say 10w-30) from Castrol of different grade can act very different in the specified condition. Just as there is a difference in quality between brands of the same rated viscosity because of how it's engineered to a specific purpose. I called BMW NA earlier, 800-831-1117. Spoke to a representative named Fred and asked him what motor oil is recommended for MY 2010 X6M. He took about 15-20 seconds to look it up on his end and replied BMW TWS 10w-60. I repeated 10W-60 three times and he emphaticlly said yes. I then proceeded to tell him that the S63 motor is different then the previous M motors and asked him to double check and he said its the 10W-60. He then asked me again to make sure I am not refering to the S62 motor which had an exception and I said it's the S63. He said the only time any other grades of synthetic oil can be used is for emergency top off where the 10w60 is not available. Please someone else call and verify. For all I know, you may get a different answer, but this is what I got. |
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03-29-2011, 08:24 PM | #40 | |
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03-30-2011, 03:31 AM | #41 |
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This is the default BMW oil info sheet.
Notice the first section it calls for 5w-30, this oil is the default oil unless otherwise noted. It does have a special M section, but the M section specifically only states 4 engines, S54, S62, S65, S85 that needed the 10w-60. This means the S63 is not part of the exception. Of note, there is a Alpina B7 section that calls for the standard 5w-30 oil, the B7 engine is derived from the N63 engine, just like the S63 engine in the X5/6M. They all uses the same N63 engine block, there are no extra oil passages on the S63 for extra oil flow, which means the heavier 10w-60 oil will no provide enough flow at the top end of the rev range. This sheet is also the same info the BMW rep pull up when you called in. There is no special section for S63, as it is suppose to be using the dedault oil, but since it's installed in a X5/6M, with the M being the keyword he heard, he defaults back to the M section. Btw, when talking about 'sophisticated' engine oil, BMW factory oil are API SM rated, a higher grade than even the TWS, which is SJ, or it's current form, Castrol Formula RS 10w-60, a SL grade. In any case, if you want to continue using 10w-60, no one is stopping you. At least when your engine blow up because of insufficient oil flow, you can claim warranty on it as you DID used 'BMW Approved Oil', as told by a BMW rep. You did record that phone call as future evidence did you? |
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03-30-2011, 11:04 AM | #42 | |
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03-30-2011, 12:08 PM | #44 |
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Bump: 10W-60 TWS, get over it. There are piston oil squirters in the M block. I am not sure they are also in the non M block.
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